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This week on the New Music Business podcast, Ari sits down with Red Leather, the anonymous artist who turned viral TikTok videos into sold-out tours around the world. Known for his signature red hat, Red Leather first started his career by busking on Hollywood Boulevard before exploding online with viral covers and original songs like “The Only Time It Rains in Hollywood.”
In this episode, Red Leather breaks down how he used social media to grow his audience from scratch, why he posted 5 videos a day for 100 straight days, how smashing guitars outside Capitol Records landed him a record deal (that he turned down), and why ticket sales matter more than streams or viral moments. He also opens up about sobriety, surviving addiction, touring independently, and eventually partnering with Empire after years of doing everything DIY.
Follow Red Leather:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/redleather/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@redleather
Check out Ari’s Take:
https://aristake.com
00:04:02 – Intro
00:04:36 – The Origin of Red Leather
00:06:39 – Sobriety, Addiction & Artistic Vulnerability
00:10:11 – Posting 5 Videos a Day for 100 Days
00:14:11 – The Viral TikTok That Changed Everything
00:20:00 – Smashing Guitars Outside Capitol Records
00:25:12 – Why He Turned Down Major Label Deals
00:33:28 – Booking Tours Through Instagram DMs
00:47:23 – Virality vs Real Fans & Ticket Sales
01:01:58 – What “Making It” Means Today
Edited and mixed by Ruben Zarate
Music by Brassroots District
Produced by the team at Ari’s Take
Order the THIRD EDITION of How to Make It in the New Music Business: https://book.aristake.com
Transcript:
00:00:00:01 – 00:00:26:09
So I started posting five times a day. I posted five times a day for 100 days straight on, on on TikTok and in reels and everything. And you know, meanwhile, also like, you know, diving into, you know, recovery and and it became like my, my new addiction. You know, like it was it was way healthier than cocaine, I’ll tell you that.
00:00:26:09 – 00:00:39:18
But, but arguably. But that’s fine. No, I’m just kidding. Yeah, yeah. Both I’ve done both in social media. Was a drug.
00:00:39:20 – 00:01:00:22
What’s going on? Welcome to the new music business. I’m your host, Ari Herstand, author of How to Make It in the New Music Business. The book, third edition, is out now. All formats audiobook, hardcover, book. However you like books, you can find the book. And one of those readers of the book is my guest today, the artist. Red Leather.
00:01:00:23 – 00:01:22:18
Now Red Leather is if you’re just listening to this and you don’t get to see it, you might want to hop over to YouTube and see what Red Leather looks like in our interview because, well, his image is completely anonymous. He wears a red hat with some string tassels over the front. He never shows his face. He doesn’t show his face in his videos.
00:01:22:18 – 00:01:43:15
He doesn’t show his face on his social media, on stage, anywhere. He is a very successful artist and a great artist, and the music stands on its own and we talk about this. I address this my first question. Tell me about the hat so you’ll understand kind of his intention behind this very smart guy. Really strong social media and marketing.
00:01:43:15 – 00:02:06:22
And we talk about kind of the last three years of his career, which have been a absolute rocket ship, from completely DIY busking on Hollywood Boulevard to going viral many, many times on social media, on TikTok, on Instagram, we talk about virality a lot and kind of his intentions behind it and how you don’t want to go viral for the wrong reasons and what it means, what the metrics are.
00:02:06:22 – 00:02:28:09
He looks at to the point of turning down every major record label that all approached him. He talks about the conversations that he had with all of these record deals, and why he decided to eventually go with the indie label Empire, and what that relationship has been like. Red Leather currently has over 300 million total streams. He’s currently on a headlining tour right now all over the US and Europe.
00:02:28:09 – 00:02:51:00
He is an artist that maintains this anonymity very intentionally, not just as a gimmick, but he talks about kind of the beginning stages of coming up with this brand in this idea and how he came up with it and why he decided to run with it. Here is somebody who he and he’s very transparent about this, but he almost died of an overdose.
00:02:51:00 – 00:03:10:04
He is he is sober now and he sings about this in his music. He talks about it on social media, and we talk about that a little bit today on the show. And, you know, it brings it brings great perspective to everything else. Almost dying, I guess. You know, he keeps talking about how this is his second shot, his second chance at life, at everything.
00:03:10:04 – 00:03:29:15
And so, you know, he brings a lot of wise insight into how to approach music marketing and how maybe you don’t need to take it that seriously. It ain’t life or death. You can check out Red Leather anywhere you find music. Go listen to his new album, Tahoe. It’s on all the streaming services. Check out his tour dates.
00:03:29:15 – 00:03:50:01
He might be coming near you and you should definitely go check out a show. You can find all of us that make the show happen at Ari’s Take on the socials. You can find me at her stand on Instagram visit Ari’s take though. Get on our email list. That’s actually the best way to stay in touch is Aristake.com. But if you wouldn’t mind, just just pause this show right now.
00:03:50:02 – 00:04:28:03
Pauses. Leave us a five star review on Spotify on Apple Podcasts. However, you’re listening to this right now, give us a thumbs up on YouTube. Hit the subscribe button. Hit the follow button. All right, let’s kick into the show. Red Leather. Welcome to the show. What’s up? Ari? Good to meet you, man. You too. So for those that are just listening right now and are not are not seeing this, not watching this on YouTube, I do have to set this up for those that are not familiar with with you read and all that you are right now, you are talking to me behind some some red strings here as like a tassels over a red
00:04:28:04 – 00:04:57:00
hat. Your standard outfit, your standard uniform. Tell me where this comes from and why you do it. Totally. So, yeah, you know, I’m Red Leather. I’m an anonymous artist. I originally got the hat in San Bernardino, California, and I. The reason I kind of started wearing it was I spent a lot of time busking in Hollywood Boulevard in LA, and I would get I would get more attention when I wore the hat than when I didn’t.
00:04:57:01 – 00:05:16:01
That kind of that kind of, you know, birthed Red Leather and the outfit kind of came together piece by piece, you know, now I have I get to work with some stylists and stuff, which is great, but it used to just be the same outfit all the time. Yeah, in Hollywood. But you know. Yeah, this is this is this me?
00:05:16:03 – 00:05:36:08
It’s great. And it’s, you know, I mean, it helps to define a brand. And I know artists typically don’t love talking about branding and marketing and promotion and all of the business stuff. We are on the New Music business podcast, so I will we are going to have to talk about a little bit and we we will get in your music, which I definitely am excited to dig, dive deep into.
00:05:36:08 – 00:06:02:21
But because we’re on the topic. So you mentioned, I mean, the street I used to street perform to the street is such a great way to see an immediate reaction and immediate responses like, how does this work? Or doesn’t it work because, you know, people don’t care about performers on the street. They think they’re they’re not thinking they’re reduced to, you know, there’s three performers.
00:06:02:21 – 00:06:21:21
They must not be very good. I experienced a lot of that firsthand. But you could tell, like you said it like, by wearing this outfit or wearing the hat, you got more attention. So did that then help? Did you think, oh, this should this could be a brand. This could be my brand. And like, then come up with a name.
00:06:21:21 – 00:06:54:07
And then did you experiment on social media with it? And prior to that, were you were you pursuing music under a different artist name, maybe your own name or anything like that? And talk to me about the evolution of just how it turned into what we see now on stages around the world. Totally, totally. So I guess just to to preface it, I know we’re on the New Music Business podcast, so I’m happy to talk about, you know, the, the marketing and then everything of music because, you know, it’s been quite a grind, you know, to share my art with the world.
00:06:54:07 – 00:07:16:19
So I understand all of that. But yeah, you know, the funny thing about social media, I actually I wrote my entire first album before I ever posted on social media. So, you know, I, I started with, you know, with the art and with the street performing and like I said, you know, it kind of it kind of came together piece by piece.
00:07:16:21 – 00:07:45:07
But, you know, being anonymous also really gave me the outlet to be very personal in my music and, and be like, very honest because, you know, a lot of my I’m currently like four years sober and a lot of my music kind of tackles the topics of, of drug addiction and, you know, some, some serious mental issues that come with that and all the, all the experience that came with addiction.
00:07:45:07 – 00:08:17:07
So, you know, being anonymous, actually, I quickly realized, oh, wow, this is going to allow me to be, you know, even more honest with, with my, with my music and with my art. So it actually ended up being like a great, a great thing for that as well. Yeah. I mean, it makes a lot of sense. It is extremely vulnerable to share and to to write about and sing about the types of topics that you do, especially something as scary as addiction.
00:08:17:07 – 00:08:39:00
And you’re very open about it in your music, but also on social media. I mean, you’re very revealing, but I guess without it being so revealing to the point of this is your face in your birth name and all of that, which, like artists that go by their birth names, struggle with because it’s like, am I the artist?
00:08:39:00 – 00:09:04:00
Am I the human? Am I this person? And how much do I want to share about my life and how much is it through the artist? Did you feel some of that liberation by by being anonymous, by by covering your face, by not going under your, your name that liberated you to be more vulnerable and more open through your music and storytelling on social media.
00:09:04:01 – 00:09:23:16
No, 100%, you know. Yeah. I feel like there’s definitely something like a, you know, a bit of a barrier. And I guess in some ways it kind of helps people kind of focus just on the, the art itself too, and not kind of tie it with a specific person or face. But. Yeah, totally. You know, it’s like it kind of has just given me the freedom to.
00:09:23:18 – 00:09:47:05
Yeah, to be like more vulnerable and hey, man, power, power to artists who aren’t anonymous. You know, this is all I know. But, you know, it’s been working and I like it. So did you have a had you released music prior to Red Leather? Did you under a different name? Have you performed? I’m assuming you performed growing up without the hat and the mask and all of that?
00:09:47:07 – 00:10:15:06
Yeah. So, you know, I was I’ve been, you know, playing music since I was a kid, like, you know, been playing guitar and all that. But this is like, this is my first real artist project. Got it. And what kind of support have you had? I guess early on, you know, you really did break out. I mean, there’s like, you have a knack and maybe it’s just because you’ve gravitated towards it.
00:10:15:06 – 00:10:44:00
But you do have a knack. And as unsexy as social media is, you are really good at it. And I don’t and I don’t think it is just like the gimmick of the outfit and the mask and the hat, like. Yes, and the songs are excellent, and you’re a great songwriter and a great musician and artist around. And so the music does stand on its own, but we also know there are a lot of brilliant artists out there, and their music never sees the light of day, because they’re not very good at social media and they can’t do that storytelling.
00:10:44:02 – 00:11:03:21
Did you have help doing that, or have you just naturally understood how this works and you experimented on your own? And how did. Like, did you have a social media strategy? Just tell me about that. That whole process for you? Totally, totally. I’d love to, because I spent a lot of a lot of time making videos. So yeah.
00:11:03:22 – 00:11:23:12
So at the at the beginning, like I said, I had made my first album, Reno, you know, completely before I ever posted on, on social media. And, you know, I just felt so strongly about the art and obviously, yeah, you know, like with the, with the even with my hat, I’m happy. Like, I had some great photos and I was like, this is it.
00:11:23:13 – 00:11:40:06
You know, like, I want to I want like, this is all I need to be able to for, you know, the world should be able to hear my music. I felt like, you know, this great music should be enough. Right? And my producers had been, you know, begging me to use social media. They were like, red, you got to get on social media.
00:11:40:07 – 00:12:07:10
This is how this is how it works now, and this is how you’re going to get people are going to going to hear your story and all that. And I really resisted it. And also at the time, you know, I wasn’t active addiction. So even this album that was being written, it was like I was it was brief periods of of creativity, you know, followed by, you know, just a lot of drinking, using just dark, dark times.
00:12:07:12 – 00:12:31:00
Yes. But when I, when I got sober, you know, I dove headfirst into recovery, but also to like to to really, I don’t know, like to use my, my time and to not think about drinking or using. I started posting to social media. I finally was like, you know what? I’m going to start, I’m going to start posting.
00:12:31:00 – 00:12:52:05
And I, I did everything, you know, like, I, I was a student of the game. I just was on my I open up ticket. I was like, hey, what are people doing? And all different types of things sometimes, like when I in 2022 when I first started, like you could post a six second clip of your music with some text on the screen and like, that could.
00:12:52:06 – 00:13:23:20
That’s right. I could blow up, right. Like it always changes. I remember that era. Yeah, right. Yeah. So I started posting five times a day. I posted five times a day for 100 days straight on, on, on TikTok and in reels and everything. And, you know, meanwhile, also like, you know, diving into, you know, recovery and and it became like my, my new addiction, you know, like it was it was way healthier than cocaine, I’ll tell you that.
00:13:23:20 – 00:13:48:21
But but arguably but that’s fine now I just kidding. Yeah. Yeah. Both I’ve done both in social media was a drug. All right. Sounds good. You know, I have an addictive personality, so that’s what worked for me. But yeah. No, you know, and all that to say, like, I just, I remember I, like, was getting lunch one time and I checked my phone after getting lunch with this person.
00:13:48:21 – 00:14:12:23
And I remember it like all these notifications, I was like, what the hell is this? In a video that I had posted, you know, like an hour before, had like 30,000 plays. And again, no, no, no team, no advice. I literally just picked up the phone, started recording videos. It was a lot of covers at the beginning. Like, I would do this thing like I would like, okay, I would pick a cover, I would find the right key for my voice.
00:14:12:23 – 00:14:40:11
I would sit down, I would record it, I would edit the video, I would do all the captions. Like this was like a one. It started as just like a one man operation. And I would just all day. Yeah, just be recording and posting videos and then I it was probably like a month into this, you know, that I had a cover of the House of the Rising Sun, and I did like this funny thing to wear.
00:14:40:12 – 00:15:03:18
Before every cover I would like introduce myself. I would say I’ll be like, yo, yo, I’m Red Leather. And this is my cover of blank, blank, blank. And one of those was, oh, I’m Red Leather. And this is my cover of House the Rising Sun. And I posted that one. And that one, like blew up like abnormally, you know, it got like hundreds of thousands, maybe like, it got like a million plays and like a day or something.
00:15:03:19 – 00:15:10:21
It was like insane. And how many videos had you posted before that?
00:15:10:23 – 00:15:28:16
Probably could be like a hundred, you know. Could be. Okay. Yeah. Be like. Yeah, like like I said, there’s 30 days in five videos a day, like probably like around 100, maybe over 100 at this point. Something like that. Something like that. Yeah. Give or take a few. Those are there’s a lot of stuff I’ve taken down now.
00:15:28:17 – 00:15:51:16
You know, from the early days I’ve only kept some of it, but but yeah, let’s say 100 videos in 30 days into using social media just aggressively, additively, the cover hits. And yeah, I remember I went to a concert that day, you know, as, as Red, you know, in my with my hat on and in real life, someone recognized me.
00:15:51:16 – 00:16:21:00
They were like, yo. They were like, yo, I saw your video today. And I was like, are you serious? Like, you know, and then I was like, well, the million people see a video. Like, if you go out to a concert where there’s like 3000 people in LA, maybe, you know, I it was. Yeah, it was, it was like this incredible experience where I was like, whoa, like, this is, this is not just numbers on a screen like, this is real people that are getting introduced to my to my art.
00:16:21:00 – 00:16:31:06
And this is like it was more than I realized. This is even more powerful than I originally thought. Yeah, yeah.
00:16:31:08 – 00:17:04:11
No. Keep going. Okay. Yeah. So so then I was like, okay, I want to also post some originals because I had this whole album music that I had worked so hard on. And, you know, this is just personally how it worked for me. Like, I’m so happy that I had, like, an album’s worth of music that I truly loved before I started posting my music, because I see so many artists that like, they post like something, it’s like a work in progress or it’s like something, or they just don’t have like something like a body of work or anything to back it up.
00:17:04:11 – 00:17:34:20
But like I had, like I had like 15 songs, you know. Yeah. That I was really passionate about that I’d like spent time on without any socials. So I posted a, started posting a few clips, and one of them was the Only Time It Rains in Hollywood, which was a song that I wrote about, you know, my experience busking in Hollywood and how like, there was so much homelessness and addiction and despair and that one goes even more viral than the the House of the Rising Sun cover, like it was even bigger.
00:17:34:20 – 00:18:12:03
And I think it was like it was getting like, I don’t know if I look back now, maybe it has like 5 or 7 million on TikTok, which is not like, you know, I don’t know, like the most viral thing in the world, but it’s for for new artist. It’s pretty wild. It’s pretty viral, really, really big. And so I remember, you know, I just like that went up and I was like, probably hit like 100,000 or 200,000 followers within like the first, like 90 days and again, like, you know, mind you, I’m also like, getting sober, figuring out my life like it’s my life doesn’t complete 180 in the first, like 9100 days
00:18:12:03 – 00:18:38:07
of my sobriety. And, and I started getting, like, messages from, like, every record label, you know, that’s just how that’s, that’s they know, you know, they, they track the data on these apps. And of course, so I started, you know, getting all the messages and, and then I remember I went, I got like a, I found on like Facebook Marketplace, like a, a ticket to Coachella.
00:18:38:09 – 00:18:55:04
And I was somehow able to and I got a friend to like me a ride out there and I go to Coachella. I’m staying at like a motel six. And and I remember I just, like, went to Coachella to enjoy the music and also but I went, you know, as read all three days. And I was just getting recognized, like a lot.
00:18:55:04 – 00:19:15:09
And I was like, I didn’t have an even have a song out, you know, like it was like, I don’t even have any music out. This is just from posting videos. And so go ahead. Sorry. Oh, no. So only time Rains in Hollywood wasn’t out yet. This was you. And I kind of wished it was out now. Now I have maybe changed my strategy with marketing.
00:19:15:10 – 00:19:37:02
Sure. Got it. Yeah. So new to everything. I didn’t know how it was supposed to work, and so I had no music out yet, but just a, you know, a few videos that were going viral. Yeah. So you go to Coachella as Red and you’re getting recognized and so do you feel like, oh, I’m onto something here. This is working.
00:19:37:03 – 00:20:05:12
These are actually real people. Because it is, it is it’s it’s it’s got to be tough for these social media for artists that kind of catch on social media initially, but can experience what that feels like in real life because it’s like, you know, those are just numbers. They’re not real people. It’s a one way street there. It’s just like you post out and you might see some comments, but like that’s also just text on a screen or whatever.
00:20:05:14 – 00:20:24:21
Did it, did it then feel real or what was the moment where something did feel like this was a turning point for you? I think it was. Yeah. I mean, definitely like those first couple of times I went out in public like Coachella. Coachella was a big one to just be like, oh, wow. Like, you know, this is a this, this, this is real.
00:20:24:21 – 00:20:49:10
And yeah, and also just getting hit up by a bunch of like, you know, record companies that were like, hey, like, right, right. What’s going on? Like, we’d love, we’d love to meet you or whatever. And I quickly kind of followed all of this up with my first, my first viral TikTok series, which was smashing a guitar every day in front of Capitol Records until they sent me a record for.
00:20:49:12 – 00:21:15:04
Where did You get the money to to find the guitars to smash, or whose guitars were these that let you smash them all? So some of them I found in, you know, actually a couple of I found in the garbage. Okay. Well, there you go. Craigslist, Amazon. If you find you can find a guitar for about 40 bucks, like the cheapest acoustic guitar.
00:21:15:06 – 00:21:46:13
And, you know, I was I mean, I was scrounging every, every, every penny I could to, to get the cheapest guitars possible. You know, I was not I was not smashing any Gibsons, any Gibson. Right, right, right. Or Strats or Taylors. Yeah. So literally like out of its type guitars. And what inspired this was smashing guitar in front of Capital Rex’s Capital, your dream label, or is just such an iconic building that you’re like, you know what?
00:21:46:13 – 00:22:05:21
This is recognizable. This is a symbol here. And but what was also what was your intention other than just going viral? I think I picked capital because I was already so like that was that was like a fixture of the neighborhood that I was in, you know, like being and spending so much time in Hollywood, it was already there.
00:22:05:22 – 00:22:33:03
I think it kind of represented, you know, like, I don’t know, like that’s the music industry, at least in my head, like records, you know, I didn’t know any better. So yeah, I think, you know, the intention was just like, let’s just see what happens. Like, I don’t like. Yeah. And I think, you know, one thing about social media that I think is kind of underrated is that something doesn’t have to go viral right away for it to work.
00:22:33:04 – 00:22:58:10
Right. So during this period, I think I did it for like, I don’t know, like 15, 20 days. I don’t know, like I probably reused guitars at some point where I was using like at one point I had to use like plastic ukuleles. Like, sure, I it really was it wasn’t always pretty. But I like, you know, the videos are getting like 10,000, 20,000.
00:22:58:11 – 00:23:25:20
I think I got one of the videos to get like 100,000 because I like, recruited the security guard to like, act like he was, you know, kicking me out like I was never I was like, it’s really about just picking up the phone and filming like, and not being afraid. Somewhat stupid. Or here’s the thing, man. Like, I had just I had literally 100 days before this, you know, almost died, OD’d in Las Vegas, you know, so I’m like, I have at this point, I am like, I have nothing to lose.
00:23:25:20 – 00:23:46:08
I’m like, you know, I, I went through two near-death experiences in December of 21 and January of 22, and I am just, like, on fire with my second chance. I’m on fire with the spirit of recovery. You know, like, I was like, this is my fucking second chance at life. And I was like, I’m not gonna I’m not gonna pass this up.
00:23:46:08 – 00:24:12:12
So I was just balls to the walls. I don’t give a fuck. I’m gonna try everything. So but kind of go on that. So I ended up doing like, let’s say 15 or 20 days of this. And, so my point was they went, like, mildly with some views, like some good views, but then a year and a half later, some random TikToker was like, have you heard of red leather?
00:24:12:13 – 00:24:44:07
The guy who smashed 20 guitars outside of Capitol Records? And until they sent him a record deal and he made this, this, this, this random kind of like blogger on TikTok made a video about it. And then I do edit the video, and then that video got like 5 or 8 million plays. So like, wow, you know, my the market, the marketing, you know, the, the whatever, a couple hundred, the few hundred bucks that I was able to scrap together to, to break those guitars, you know, was actually very worth it.
00:24:44:10 – 00:25:07:08
Yeah. Like 8 million views of of publicity, like a year and a half later. It would cost way more than that if you if you were running ads on TikTok or Instagram to get to that number of views. Absolutely. Yeah. I don’t yeah. I don’t even want to imagine how many, how much that would cost. Yeah. But and Capitol Records ended up sending me a record deal.
00:25:07:10 – 00:25:35:10
They, they, they started commenting and then I started doing them and they sent me a record and it was an awful record deal. It was, it was it was absolutely, absolutely terrible. And I, you know, lucky enough, I didn’t I didn’t jump at it. And I so, you know, I ended up not I ended up not using or not not not signing it, but so and then what I did was I printed it out and I burned it and I posted that.
00:25:35:12 – 00:26:08:03
Brilliant. When I was this, was this before, after you were getting I guess you went viral for only time. It rains in Hollywood and that other labels were hitting you up as well. Was this before that was like all this was all at the same time? All around the same time. Okay. Yeah. So I ended up doing is like, I really like leveraged leveraged the kind of, you know, buzz that was happening to like, I don’t know, it was like it was how like I was meeting with labels and doing this whole Capitol Records thing.
00:26:08:03 – 00:26:32:18
And I actually had a nice zoom meeting with them. You know, they were cool. And but I think after meeting with all the labels, I kind of was feeling like, you know, they it felt like a lot of them didn’t really have a handle on, like, how do we market artists in the modern era. And, and there are a lot of these labels that I had met with initially were like, yeah, our plan is for you to post to TikTok.
00:26:32:19 – 00:26:56:07
And I’m like, well, I already that’s exactly what I’m doing now. So I ended up release doing like, just like a single deal I did. I released my first song with an independent label because it just felt like they kind of, you know, knew the internet a little bit better and knew marketing a little bit better. And again, it was it was one song.
00:26:56:07 – 00:27:24:19
So it was like, wasn’t going to like lock me in for the rest of my life or anything. So I did a single deal and that was cool, you know, like they were they did. They did what they could and, you know, they were good people and I. But after that I decided to go fully independent, which I was fully independent for, I guess probably the next three years.
00:27:24:21 – 00:28:03:01
And during this time, I mean, I guess it has to be pretty tempting to go with a record label, considering you’re kind of doing this all on your own. I mean, sure, I’m glad that you saw through their lack of a plan when it comes to marketing, and it’s just like it was. You got to see behind the curtain a little bit at how even at the major label level, nobody really knows how to market music, and they just have a lot more money and a lot more resources.
00:28:03:01 – 00:28:41:00
But that being said it, they have a lot more money and a lot more resources. And I’m assuming some of them at least, were probably offering you pretty big advances to go with them. So what made you kind of turn every turn it all down especially? I mean, if you’re busking? Well, I don’t know how you know your financial situation at the time, but if someone’s waving $1 million check in your face or a half $1 million check in your face or whatever it may be, it’s got to be hard for a lot of artists to turn that down, even with their lack of understanding of how the modern internet in music marketing works.
00:28:41:02 – 00:29:14:21
No, totally. And, you know, yeah, my financial situation was not good. Yeah, you know, at the time, but I think, I don’t know, I it was just a gut feeling, you know, I think again, like during my whole getting sober and, and like that whole time, it was a very like spiritual time for me. And I really believe it was like a God’s timing thing and I, I just, I don’t know, I started to like, trust my gut and, and explore faith a little bit and just nothing was feeling right.
00:29:14:22 – 00:29:35:23
You know, I just just like what was feeling right was making music I loved and sharing it as much as possible with the world and seeing the results in real time. And so, yeah, you know, when the labels came, you know, they I don’t even think they really understood what I was doing, you know, at the time, I think maybe they saw the hat and they were like, this is weird.
00:29:36:00 – 00:29:56:18
You know, who is like, what’s going on? And whatever it might be, like the, you know, the deals that were being talked about and offered, it’s just none of it made sense at the time and it didn’t feel right. And again, you know, in a lot of those meetings, it just had felt like I just my gut feeling was like, this is not right.
00:29:56:18 – 00:30:22:04
And what I need to do is just have this, keep doing this direct to fan thing. And, you know, I just I just had faith that it would work out later, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So so you stayed independent for a few years just releasing so. So then did you. So you released Reno, the 2023 album independently? Just on your own?
00:30:22:04 – 00:30:51:21
Yes. Yep. Who did you release that through? What? Distributor distro, kid. Straight up. Just district. Amazing. And. Yeah. Yourself. Okay. And around this time, where were you also? I mean, were you did you tour, did you have any support where you did you have any other kind of more traditional industry support? I had, you know, a management team at the time did a manager.
00:30:51:22 – 00:31:13:21
Okay. Yeah, I found a management team that were, you know, getting me some cool, you know, just like opportunities and connecting me with, you know, other other folks. That was that definitely helpful. And how did you find a manager. Yeah. What was that like to to kind of connect with a manager, a management team. And what made you decide to to go with them?
00:31:13:21 – 00:31:38:10
So I, I there’s a really cool platform called Indie Fi. Are you familiar with. Sure. Yeah. And I met some really cool people through there and a good buddy of mine, Jordan, is a really good guy over there, and he helped connect me with, like, a lot of early people from from late, from everything from like labels and managers and all this stuff.
00:31:38:10 – 00:32:04:05
And it was just like mutual connections. I would just do what, what, what we’re doing now, I would just I remember just doing a lot of a lot of meetings like that with different industry folks. And I was just, again, very careful to not like, sign a bad record deal. And, yeah, I found a management group and met with them in person, and, and I was with them, you know, for a couple of years.
00:32:04:07 – 00:32:34:00
But yeah, you know, I like it was the whole thing was very, very DIY. Sure. You know, distro kid definitely, you know, paid up, paid a little bit. And that was very helpful. You know, and but yeah, you know, it wasn’t until, I guess May of, of 20, 25 that I started working with Empire. I saw that and tell me about what that relationship is.
00:32:34:01 – 00:33:01:09
And is this a traditional label? Is it a distribution deal like break down what what this partnership is. So I guess yeah. So I think I’ll to to to rewind just a little bit. Right. So sure I, I do by the way shout out Empire wearing the Empire jacket today. Yeah great great great people I love I love Empire and all the people there.
00:33:01:11 – 00:33:28:06
And but so I was going independent. Released the first. I released the first album independently. I kind of keep going. I play my first show ever at this kind of backyard venue called The Shed in LA. And I remember, like, people have fans fly out from like, New York and all these like it was sold out 200 people, but they weren’t all from LA.
00:33:28:07 – 00:34:07:04
It was like so special. And that was kind of like, yeah, it’d be like a real thing. So cool. Can I kept going independently and I did like three headlining shows that at the end of 2023, 2024 was very much a grind. Year of of opening for other people on tour. You know, obviously as an artist, I don’t know if this is every artist, but for me, I absolutely love performing in my dream was to tour, you know, I was like, I wanted to get on the road so badly.
00:34:07:06 – 00:34:33:18
And because I’d only played like a few of my own headlining shows and that was awesome. But I really wanted to play like a bunch of dates. And so, I didn’t have an agent at first. And so I started reaching out to I would literally just Google like bands that I knew or artists, and I would look at their social medias and see, like who’s going on tour, and I would literally just DM them on Instagram.
00:34:33:18 – 00:34:51:15
So to do it. Yeah. Like a friend of mine now, a friend of mine, Sawyer Hill, I saw he was going on tour and I just DM’d him. I remember I was on the way to my own headlining show. I like sleep on the plane and I wake up and I get a damn bag. He’s like, yeah, let’s do it.
00:34:51:15 – 00:35:12:12
I was like, are you serious? Like, this is, you know, at this time, like, I could sell a few tickets for sure, sure. But I’d never had any real, like, nationwide touring history. So yeah, I go on that tour and then I also DM another band called Dexter and the Moon Rocks. They’re good, good friends. They’re blowing up right now.
00:35:12:12 – 00:35:36:02
Shout out to them. And I open up for them. And I think I ended up doing like 20 plus shows with Dexter. You know, they’re just like, it really worked. And I brought enough fans for it to make sense. And I got the opportunity to get on the road and open up. And so that was most of 2024 was opening up for a lot of other bands.
00:35:36:02 – 00:35:58:21
And then I did some, and then I did some headlining gates in that in that fall period. Now I gotta pause. I mean, that’s that’s amazing. And it is it is funny, I think for people that might be listening and for you at the time that you realize, like, holy shit, I can just DM other artists, they’re that accessible and I can ask if if I can go on tour opening for them.
00:35:58:21 – 00:36:22:01
And then right now, granted, you’d already built up an audience, you’d built a foundation. Your numbers kind of spoke for themselves at the time, and so they could see that and be like, oh, this guy can help sell tickets. And that’s the thing for people listening, you know, even though an artist might be headlining 500,000 cap rooms, they might only be able to sell two, 300 tickets in those markets.
00:36:22:01 – 00:36:39:15
And so they oftentimes are bringing on an opener that can help sell maybe 50 to 100 or 200 tickets or something, fill out the room a little bit. So as much as they’re going to bring you on because they dig what you’re doing and like your music, of course that’s that’s the foundation, that’s the baseline. But it’s also because you can help sell tickets.
00:36:39:15 – 00:37:00:18
And, you know, they want to make sure they’re not going to lose their ass. Now, on these tours where you’re playing in front of, you know, I’m assuming what size rooms were these at the time? So, the Sawyer run was probably like 500 cap rooms. Yeah, one was like 500. And there was like a couple, like, thousand cop shows that were crazy.
00:37:00:19 – 00:37:21:07
Yeah, sure. So when you’re playing these, you know, you, I guess, where do you draw the line of when you’re going to be anonymous and when you’re not? I am assuming on stage in any time you’re in the venue, maybe back by the merch booth or whatever, you are Red Leather, you have the hat on. No one sees your face.
00:37:21:07 – 00:37:56:23
But did Sawyer? Did Dexter? Did these artists like how? Yeah. Where’s that line? And did you have to figure out what that line was going to be and how anonymous did you want to be? You know, like I tell I tell some people I was born with the hat and sure, I stayed. I stay super anonymous, you know, it’s it’s it’s definitely some more work, but it’s just kind of like, you know, I just I, I’m committed to my artistry and this is, this is that, you know, so yeah, I stay anonymous throughout all the tours and stuff.
00:37:57:00 – 00:38:24:16
Right on. So you’re doing these tours I think you said this was like 2024 or something. And are you also working on the next album during this time period? You said, did you like then? Totally. Okay. So yeah, you know, most of my I do all my writing in like these little at Airbnbs, mostly like rents and Airbnb and then okay, cool board there instead of like getting a instead of getting like studio time.
00:38:24:18 – 00:38:54:22
Yeah. So yeah, I was kind of like in between in between the tours, you know, renting Airbnbs and Joshua Tree or Big Bear up in Lake Tahoe definitely were definitely was working on album number two the whole time in. And do you have collaborators that help you with like let’s with the music? I mean, the credits just kind of say that you are everything, but tell me about the other collaborators that you have.
00:38:55:00 – 00:39:19:16
I got my I got my two boys, a Buck and Nelson and two good homies of mine. They. And what do they do? They are producers, so. Okay. Cool. So yeah, I work, I work with them and nice. Yeah. And what’s the process like with Buck and Nelson? I mean, are you guys all together in Joshua Tree, you know, in an Airbnb and is one of them the driver?
00:39:19:16 – 00:39:33:12
Do you guys sit in a room together and write the songs, or do you kind of come up with it, maybe acoustically, send it to them, they flesh it out and then you work on it together. What’s the process? It it always depends on the song. You know, a lot of, a lot of the songs start with like tarp parts.
00:39:33:12 – 00:40:06:09
You know, I’m always writing guitar parts, like songs like, you know, Burning Hell or Dakota or Pusher Man or Death Wish. I’ll come, I’ll come to like a camp ready with like a whole folder of Qatar progressions and ideas and then also, you know, like, it just depends, you know, like the only time it rains in Hollywood. I remember we wrote that, you know, sitting at a picnic table at dinner in the tree and there was no music, you know, and then we went home that night and, and then put those, all those lyrics to a song.
00:40:06:11 – 00:40:27:08
Yeah. So yeah, it depends every time. Cool. And how did you. How did you meet these guys? I actually met these guys when I was busking in LA. Oh, no. Shit. Yeah. Cool. And they just come up to you on the street and be like, hey, I like what you’re doing. Who are you together? Yeah. They’re like, who are you?
00:40:27:09 – 00:41:04:13
What are you doing? And I was like, they’re like, what’s your Instagram like? I don’t have one. But like again, yeah, these guys were definitely helping me or pushing me to like, market my music and everything. Now the process writing Tahoe, the new album versus now after like after you had already toured, have social media, have an Instagram, have, you know, had some viral moments and, you know, oddly enough, not as anonymous, I guess, you know, anonymous as a human, but but not as the artist.
00:41:04:15 – 00:41:40:23
How is this process different from when you were writing the first songs for Reno? But just like those first songs without any social media and maybe not any, I don’t want to call it pressure, but it was totally open. It was a it was a blank slate. You were just kind of maybe in a state of do you think that it was do you think there was like some purity that was during the initial process because you had not established this artist in this brand yet?
00:41:40:23 – 00:42:05:12
And how has that affected the writing process and the creation process later on, after the brand had already been established? Totally. So I would say the main difference between the the Reno album and the Tahoe album was that I was still an active addiction during the Reno album, you know? So, you know, like I said, it would, it was, it was it was hard living, man.
00:42:05:13 – 00:42:34:14
I like it was. Yeah. You know, dark, dark days of addiction and and lots of drugs and alcohol and bad people and bad places and, you know, like my producers would, you know, be picking me up from motels on Sunset Boulevard and, you know, trying to tell me, hey, you got to get clean. And then we’d go to the studio for a week and write music, you know, out in Joshua Tree, and I wouldn’t be.
00:42:34:15 – 00:42:50:17
I wasn’t doing any hard drugs, you know, I would stop using cocaine for, like, a week. And we were right, you know, and then I would come back and be like, oh, I have all these great songs and boom, right back into the, you know, the party. It was, it was, it was a party of one by the end of it.
00:42:50:18 – 00:43:14:02
Yeah, yeah. But so, you know, I think when I the biggest difference was that I was sober writing almost all of Tahoe and, but as far as the process, it’s actually remained exactly the same. You know, like I think like, you know, when I’m, you know, I’m not wearing the hat in the studio, you know, I’m not, I’m not we’re not making TikToks.
00:43:14:02 – 00:43:45:01
We’re not doing social media, we’re not marketing, we’re not branding. We are sitting down and just creating music. So even to this day, like we still I don’t record in studios, we get Airbnbs and we sit down and we write, you know, and so I think the one thing I’m really happy about, and I take a lot of, I guess the word would be not that I take pride in it, but I take it very seriously is that it is the music creation process.
00:43:45:01 – 00:44:09:02
Because like before, there was ever a a hat or a, you know, a, you know, social media presence. We were just writing these songs, which are my story. So, you know, that’s always the most important thing to me is the music and the art. And so the process hasn’t, hasn’t really changed. You know, besides just not being fucked up, you know.
00:44:09:05 – 00:44:37:07
So. Yeah. And tell me about I mean, you had success with you had success with Rina the first album. So I mean, I guess it’s like, you know what ain’t broke? Don’t fix it kind of a thing, but with a label support, maybe with a little bit more money. Was there temptation to go into a studio to rent out a studio, like, let’s do it like my idols did it and hop in there?
00:44:37:07 – 00:44:59:22
And what were the conversations like with your producers when getting ready to track the the next album? You know, I think, well, we didn’t have to take turns sleeping on the couch there. Be. Okay, so you could upgrade the Airbnbs a little bit. That’s nice. Yeah, yeah, a lot of that was cool. You know, there was one Airbnb at the beginning where it was like a church pew.
00:45:00:00 – 00:45:09:20
It was in the air BNB, and I was like, you had to switch off that thing. Oh damn. Hope you had an air mattress or something. Yeah. All right.
00:45:09:22 – 00:45:37:20
But, so I think the other thing to note is that I came before I started working with Empire. The album was done, you know, so I pretty much had the Tahoe album completely written and recorded before I even, you know, started working with Empire. So, you know, when they. So I’ll kind of fast forward here a little bit.
00:45:37:20 – 00:46:13:06
So yeah. 2024, I end up doing some headlining shows and they were cool and I had a lot of fun, but it was like I was kind of in a bit of a slump in terms of growth. Right? So I kind of had felt like from, you know, mid 2023 to, all of 2024, like there was like a year and a half, you know, where I would say, like my monthly listeners on Spotify weren’t going up.
00:46:13:07 – 00:46:22:09
You know, sometimes they’re going down. It was fluctuating. There wasn’t there wasn’t any calls from any record labels anymore.
00:46:22:11 – 00:46:43:19
Because, you know, I had passed the first time and I was independent and it was a grind, man, you know, like it was a grind. Personally with, you know, finances because I’m basically investing every single dollar. Besides, you know, what it costs to live into my touring because it don’t make money at the beginning when you’re touring.
00:46:43:19 – 00:47:26:13
And it was I just if there was, it was it was a rough period. In some ways, I felt like I didn’t have fresh ideas to post online, and I was dropping music that I loved, but there wasn’t the growth that I was expecting at the beginning. And I remember then I started working with my new manager, Pedro, and him, and I started we, you know, we had known each other from a while back and, we started shooting like, social media videos together because I just had noticed he, he was working with a few other artists, and he was just really killing it like he was.
00:47:26:14 – 00:47:55:20
He had a lot of fresh ideas. And we started, I think, end of 2024, made a few videos together. But then, in 2025, we really like locked in and it was like an entire resurgence for my social media, for my brand. And we just started doing that grind again of of the social media, where it was like, we’re posting a video every single day, you know, and five videos, but it was like a little bit more intentional.
00:47:55:20 – 00:48:18:01
And, and we started posting all these videos and then I started blowing up my old songs again. Right. So this is the other thing I think, you know, you see like Dominic Facts, baby doll, it’s like a five or 6 or 7 year old song. That’s the number one on Spotify right now, dropped to seven years ago. Now it’s having its big moment.
00:48:18:03 – 00:48:40:22
I never believe a song is only is only old to people that already know it. It’s new to everyone else. So I start reposting all the biggest songs. I start reposting Hollywood and Sins, especially those two. And with new video. Or were you posting reusing? What’s that? New videos? Yep. New video, new content. Okay, interesting new content.
00:48:40:22 – 00:49:11:19
And boom, they’ll start going viral again. And then, you know, I think I, I increased my social media from like, oh man, I think I went from like 146 K to like 500 K in 2025 on these are followers you’re talking about like TikTok or Instagram. Yeah, yeah. And then I went from like 240,000 monthly listeners to a million in like three months now.
00:49:11:20 – 00:49:50:22
I mean, that’s incredible growth. I have to ask. I mean, clearly you’re paying attention to these numbers. You know, you’re monitoring these numbers seemingly pretty actively. What does that do to your mental health? Seeing these numbers go up and go down and like, or are you able to divorce yourself from those emotional effects and look at it more analytically, like, oh, this video made my numbers go up, let’s do more of that.
00:49:50:23 – 00:50:12:02
The this video didn’t do anything. Let’s do less of that. Totally. I mean, I think end of the day, man, like I’m in this thing for the long haul. You know, I’m really I’m really in this for the art. I’m really in this to create albums that I feel are classics and timeless and, and create music that I truly love.
00:50:12:04 – 00:50:38:03
And, you know, especially with having this being my second chance, I don’t care how long it takes, you know, like, I’m. So I woke up sober today. I get to do music, I get I get to go play another show in Vegas on Wednesday. I’m on tour. And, you know, I’m I’m not attached long term, you know, to the results.
00:50:38:04 – 00:51:01:23
You know, obviously you’re right. Like, I am monitoring the numbers and sure, I think I can’t speak for every artist, but I know a lot of artists do. You know, because you’re. Oh, what does this mean? And oh my God, I got worse getting less views or more views. And it is difficult, man. You know, I think like like I said, in that kind of slump period, it definitely was was difficult to not see growth.
00:51:01:23 – 00:51:17:13
But yeah I just had the number one. You just batten on the hatches man. And you just keep going. You know, I just, I just like I’m not only I’m not about to get this far just to give up. Like it’s just like, yeah, I just again like I don’t have the I’m already on the second chance, you know what I’m saying?
00:51:17:14 – 00:51:37:23
Like totally. I’m not going to it brings perspective to everything else. Yeah I’m a very not give up person. So I toughed it out and I figured out ways to like grow in other ways. You know, it was like, okay, my monthly listeners aren’t going up. I don’t have good ideas for social media. I’m going to go open up.
00:51:38:00 – 00:52:04:13
I’m going to go play 50 shows this year and do that, because that’s also my dream, you know, great and great. I kind of was able to do that. And then as far as the analytical question. Absolutely. Like I remember, you know, going through all the videos I had posted in the last year on my Instagram Analytics, and I was like, man, most of these didn’t work.
00:52:04:13 – 00:52:22:14
But this one video, I got 10,000 new followers from this one. So let’s do more of that. Yeah. So like definitely, you know, I don’t do it all the time, but anytime that there’s like a slump, you know you got to look at what works. Absolutely. Now what are the metrics that you pay attention to the most. Is it the views.
00:52:22:14 – 00:52:41:22
Is it the likes? The engagement you just mentioned? I got a 10,000 followers from this video. Is it the number of followers that you get from it? So here’s how. Here’s the way that I look at it. And I always talk to Pedro. And I remember having this conversation because we had a couple of videos that went viral just because we did things that were viral looking, you know.
00:52:41:23 – 00:53:02:07
Sure. Right, right. And here’s what I told Pedro. I was like, here’s the recipe that I want on my videos. I don’t care how many of you as it gets what I want, it needs to show the music, it needs to tell my story, and it needs to be a creative idea. That was our that was like our recipe.
00:53:02:08 – 00:53:34:07
You know, we’re like. And of course he, he, you know, Pedro has a, has a, he’s a, you know, a genius in the marketing space in social media. And so his, his department was how do we how do we make it interesting enough to go viral? And my department was like, it’s going to have the music, I’m going to be playing and performing my music in this video for the 60s and sneak in something about how I’m sober, and this is why I do what I do, you know?
00:53:34:08 – 00:53:55:21
So it was like it was very intentional to make stuff that would convert because you can get a video with a million views. It’s like a stupid video and it doesn’t matter, you know, but it’s fleeting. Yeah. When you started getting viral videos of the music, that’s when you see the Spotify numbers jump, and that’s when you see the ticket sales jump.
00:53:55:23 – 00:54:15:09
You know, so to me, it’s like, it’s not it’s not really about going viral as much as it’s about people, new fans seeing something really like valuable from you, which is the music, which is your story. Because yes, you know that. Sure. I’m sure that has gotten me a lot of attention, but that’s not going to sell tickets.
00:54:15:09 – 00:54:38:07
That’s not going to get people to buy your album. You know, you have to have you have to have real substance. So go ahead. Sorry. No, no, no, I was just reinforcing. I mean, you’re exactly right. I mean, you want to go viral for the right reasons. You don’t want to go viral for the wrong reasons. And you it’s it’s it’s very wise that you always had the the eye and the prize.
00:54:38:07 – 00:55:02:15
You had this vision and you knew the intentions of what you were doing this for. It’s not to get more views. It’s not to go viral. Virality doesn’t matter if it doesn’t convert into real fans that are going to buy tickets to your shows, or listen to your music and stick with you for a while. And I mean, it takes a lot of discipline, actually, to not chase virality for virality sake.
00:55:02:15 – 00:55:24:06
And, you know, I’m sure there was a little tug, you know, push and pull tug of war going on between you and Pedro because, you know, you’re there to maintain the integrity of the art and of your brand and of your story and your artistry. And, you know, I’m sure as most marketers are like, you know, more shots on goal, like viral is viral.
00:55:24:06 – 00:55:51:09
Let’s go. I can turn that into a brand deal. And you’re like, no, no, like I want fans. I want to sell tickets. Yeah. No, totally. You know, I think it’s yeah, it’s a good mix. You know, you got to have got to have a little bit of both. And like I’ve also realized, you know, you got to be able to have fun, you know like yeah I think that was the biggest switch for the content with me was like after like a year of just just not having fun making videos, I finally was like enjoying the process again.
00:55:51:09 – 00:56:14:00
And I was like, man, if you can make marketing your music fun like that is the key. Like, because in the beginning I was having fun smashing the guitars, you know, and we made it fun again, you know? And so like then I was like, excited to go go film every day and and that helped. So when did the when did the Empire deal happen and how did that.
00:56:14:00 – 00:56:36:19
How did that come to be. Totally. So this was my second, you know, viral 2.0 here in 2025. Right. Yeah. Yeah a huge a huge growth period. And I kind of reach back out to a lot of my industry folks that I met the first time, you know, and a lot of them reached back out to me.
00:56:36:21 – 00:57:07:20
Okay. So I kind of again started having these zoom calls, started doing some in-person meetings, and just met with everyone. Man just met with just met with a lot of different companies and people and heard everyone out. And, you know, once again, my boy Jordan at Indy. Was a big proponent to try to connect me with people and let let the indie people know that my music was buzzing.
00:57:07:23 – 00:57:28:15
And, I was having these meetings, having these meetings, having these meetings. And a lot of it felt similar to the first round. Yeah. And then I met with Empire and.
00:57:28:17 – 00:57:39:05
One of the, you know, executives at the company, a good friend, Nima, he ended up flying out to my show in Kansas and.
00:57:39:07 – 00:57:55:17
He was he bought merch and flew out to the show and met me there and watched the show, and and it just said something to me, you know? And I was like, I was it just showed me that, like, he really, you know, and he spoke about the music and I would be on some of these label calls, man.
00:57:55:17 – 00:58:14:00
And I would be like, so what are your favorite songs of mine? And then they would have to like, go to their Spotify to check a list. And, you know, I’m like, yeah, you literally just looking at me as dollars and cents. Like, you probably don’t even fuck with my music. You you like you. Someone just told you to take this call because my music went viral.
00:58:14:00 – 00:58:39:11
But good for you for asking those questions and putting them on the spot. Literally, like, yo. Like because I just wasn’t. I’m just not afraid of these motherfuckers, bro. You know? Like, not afraid, I don’t care. I like, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t care if they like, you know, I just don’t care. So anyways, I remember talking to to Nima and the folks from Empire and they had like really good feedback about my music and like, reasons why they liked it.
00:58:39:11 – 00:59:00:23
And yeah, and the message and the message of it and how they were like, man, I think your music would be great here. And this is, this is why I love it. And Gazi, the CEO and founder. Yeah, yeah. You know, I was able to, to to speak with him as well. And, and he was just like man, like that song.
00:59:00:23 – 00:59:22:19
The only time reigns the Hollywood manages. I fucking love it. Like I gotta hear you sing that last note live. And it just really, like, touched me, you know, I was like, as an artist. I was like, I have had so many meetings with people that just feel like they don’t care about the music. And on top of that, there wasn’t a plan to market it, you know?
00:59:22:20 – 00:59:40:07
So it was like, what am I doing meeting with these other record labels? You know, and again, I’m not going to call out any specific labels and names. You know, that’s not how I roll. And the things can always change and companies change and people change. So I’m not saying all record label suck and all people suck at record labels.
00:59:40:07 – 01:00:13:06
That’s not what I’m saying at all. But the meetings that I was in just were uninspiring and I felt like they didn’t care about they didn’t really care about my artistry, and they just cared that they saw a jump in the graph. Right. And yeah, yeah. You know, and I sat down with Empire and they were like telling me about Shabbos and how they had he was signed to their label forever and how he went through periods of ups and downs, and then boom, he had his hit record and all of a sudden it went diamond, you know.
01:00:13:07 – 01:00:35:17
And I watched Gaza present that record to him on stage at Empire 15, you know, and I and they he had me play that show too, you know, and it was like I just instantly from the beginning and throughout my time with Empire, so far, it’s just I just felt like a priority, you know, and I feel like they really care about the music.
01:00:35:19 – 01:01:10:07
They have a great team, like they actually have ideas. They actually, you know, they they put their money where their mouth is and they, they, they I feel like they’ve really supported my art, you know. And so it’s been great so far. It’s been really great. I love that. And that’s, that’s you know, that’s an ideal situation. That’s what you want to have is, is a partner, a label that supports your art and that believes in it, and that can name songs that are their favorites and explain the reasons why and are really leaned in and show up to your shows and buy your merch.
01:01:10:07 – 01:01:33:14
And yeah, that sounds like a great partnership. Now, the deal itself is it was it different from the others that you were getting from these majors? Can you talk to a little bit about the deal? You know, I prefer not to give any, you know, any any details about, you know, the business stuff. But what I will say is it was the it was the right people and the right deal for me.
01:01:33:16 – 01:01:56:16
Great. That’s great. And so is this, I guess. Where do you go from here? You’re on tour right now. And is this. Are you noticing a shift now after this album? You know, after you dropped Tahoe earlier this year. Now you’re on this, this bigger headlining tour. Like, what does it feel like in this moment right now? Totally.
01:01:56:16 – 01:02:32:16
So in this moment, I would say it feels amazing. You know, I would say the real biggest metric of growth that I look at. And I know that a lot of, you know, industry people will look at is, is ticket sales, right. Because sure, you know, there’s a million artists on Spotify now and even AI music and so many things coming at people a million miles a second on their For You page that yeah, it is so incredibly hard to get people to care about anything, let alone art and music.
01:02:32:16 – 01:02:58:06
And, you know, this whole conference, this whole conversation is just been telling about how I’ve literally had to spend, you know, 10,000 hours just making silly videos to get people to pay into my music. And, so at the end of the day, man, if you can bring people out to like, they’ll pay and they’ll spend their time to come see you perform like that.
01:02:58:07 – 01:03:21:11
That’s a real metric to me. Yes, yes. So and we’re selling more tickets on this tour, you know, the sometimes doubling what we did last time in the same city. And I just sold out over 500 people in my hometown Reno. And it was just like, incredible, incredible moment a couple nights ago. So. Yeah, man, I’m just feeling super grateful.
01:03:21:11 – 01:03:44:05
And, you know, the album albums doing, doing well, it’s streaming good. You know, we’re still. Yeah, I kind of view it as, hey man, coming out came out like a month ago. I’m going to keep keep promoting it for the whole, you know, for as long as, as long as it takes. That’s right, that’s right. And as you said, it’s I mean, it’s only old to the people that have heard it and it’s new to those that haven’t.
01:03:44:05 – 01:04:08:01
So yeah, you can keep keep going. Right. That’s great. Well Red, thank you so much for for chatting with me and being so transparent about everything. And congratulations on the album and on the tour in all of the success, it’s it’s really great to see. I have one final question that I ask everyone who comes on the show, and that is, what is it mean to you to make it in the new music business?
01:04:08:04 – 01:04:15:03
What is making it to you?
01:04:15:05 – 01:04:26:07
I’m going to think about it for a second. Sure.
01:04:26:09 – 01:05:07:21
I think for me, making it is is about making the art. You know, making it is about continuing to release albums that I’m very, very proud of. And that’s the first thing, you know. And the second thing is, if I can, if I can continue touring for as long as I can, you know, if I can have, if I can have people, if people can be in the crowd and sing, sing all the lyrics and be moved by the music, you know, that’s that’s that’s that’s that’s that, you know, if by that standard, I’m making it now.
01:05:07:21 – 01:05:27:08
So, one day I, I want to make it even way bigger than it is now, you know, I want to keep building and growing and go to go to arenas someday. But, you know, until then, man, I’m just going to keep I’m just going to keep being present and kill these shows, make some more albums that I love.
01:05:27:08 – 01:05:44:00
And I think it all happened when it’s supposed to. Hell, yeah. Thank you so much. That was great. Thank you brother. This episode was edited by Ruben Zarate with music by Brass Roots District, and produced by all the great people at Ari’s Take.
