Listen on your favorite podcast platform: Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Acast
This week on the New Music Business podcast, Ari sits down with Justin Gammella, a hit songwriter, producer, top liner, and multi-instrumentalist based in Los Angeles. With over a billion streams to his name and more than 100 released cuts, Justin’s catalog includes Bella Poarch’s viral hit “Build a Bitch” and collaborations with artists like Benson Boone, Lennon Stella, Steve Aoki, and FINNEAS. A true “working class” pop songwriter, Justin brings a decade of professional songwriting experience to the table and is also the host of the Producer Points podcast.
In this episode, Ari and Justin dive into the realities of professional songwriting in today’s music industry. They explore how songwriters get paid, how publishing works, and the controversy around non-writing artists receiving songwriting credit. They also touch on newer developments like songwriters earning master points and how the industry continues to evolve in the streaming era. This episode also takes on the growing role of AI in music—how Justin uses it in his workflow, the ethical questions it raises, and the need for safeguards across the industry.
https://instagram.com/justin_gammella
http://instagram.com/producer_points
Chapters
00:00 The Role of Songwriters in the Music Industry
05:12 Journey to Becoming a Professional Songwriter
10:04 Understanding Publishing Deals
17:30 Monetization in the Streaming Era
23:15 The Songwriting Process and Collaboration
31:54 Vocal Production: The Heart of Music Creation
39:08 The Art of Pitch Songs: Collaboration and Emotion
42:17 Navigating the Modern Music Landscape: Major Labels vs. Indie Artists
45:57 Songwriting Credits: The Controversy of Co-Writing
50:11 The Evolving Role of Songwriters in the Streaming Era
54:56 AI in Music: Opportunities and Ethical Considerations
01:01:36 Defining Success in the New Music Business
Edited and mixed by Ari Davids
Music by Brassroots District
Produced by the team at Ari’s Take
Order the THIRD EDITION of How to Make It in the New Music Business: https://book.aristake.com
Transcript
Justin Gammella
Sometimes there’s like a tit for tat, and I think this is where songwriters can kind of sneak their way into the master a little bit. Or it’s like, okay, like your artist, for whatever reason they want to have songwriting credit, whether it’s to, you know, build up their publishing catalog so they can sell it eventually, whether they just want to feel like they’re a songwriter, whatever the reason is, cool, if I’m going to give you 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50% of the song, I want either a songwriter fee or I want a master point.
Ari Herstand
What’s going on? Welcome to the new music business. I’m your host. Ari hersand, author of How to make it in the new music business, the book, Third Edition, out now everywhere, all formats, hardcover, ebook, audiobook, you can find the book today. My guest is Justin Gammella. He is a hit songwriter, producer, top liner, multi-instrumentalist based in LA he his songwriting production can be heard on records from Bella Poarches hit single “Build a Bitch”, to songs with Benson Boone, Lennon Stella, Ash, Salem Ilese, Steve Aoki. He was a vocal producer for FINNEAS his album Optimist, on and on and on. He has over a billion streams across the songs he’s written, over 100 cuts that have officially been released, of songs that he has written. He’s a professional songwriter. He’s what we call a working class songwriter, a pop songwriter. So if you’re interested in pop songwriting, how professional songwriters work, this is definitely the episode for you. We talk everything from how songwriters get paid, how publishing works, the controversial practice of artists who didn’t have a hand in writing the song, getting songwriter credit. But then we also discussed the flip side of that, how songwriters are now actually getting some master points, and what all that means. And so we dive deep in how songwriter has evolved. He’s been a professional songwriter for over 10 years, and how it has evolved in just that time period, essentially, you know, in this streaming era. And then, of course, at the end, we talk about AI, all things AI, how he uses AI as a professional songwriter and producer, and where these ethical lines are, and how we can be thinking about AI in the music industry as a whole, how the DSPS and Spotify and all of this should be thinking about the use of AI as the news of the day right now is that there was a song that is trending right now. It is a top 10 trending song on TikTok that is completely AI. It is made 100%
Unknown Speaker
by AI, and the creator admitted that the company, I don’t remember if Suno or Udio was one of those. Yeah, it was a click of a button. They pressed one button and then popped the song onto TikTok. It is has hundreds of 1000s of creates right now, and there’s no songwriters for this song, it’s and there’s no musicians or producers. There’s literally a person that went to audio and clicked create and typed in a few prompts and boom, there we are. That is our industry right now. It’s pretty wild. So yeah, we’re gonna need to find some massive protections and safeguards very soon, and it is on the onus of everybody right now. The labels of the DSPs, Spotify, Apple Music, songwriters, the advocacy communities, all of that, to take this seriously, because it’s not going away. We just have to put up safeguards and understand as a community, as a music community, what is acceptable and what is not. And what is not. And if we want human songwriters and human musicians and human producers in the future to continue to make a living, then we got to address this. Otherwise it’s just going to be robots. So we get into all of that. And they actually, we both proposed some solutions of what we thought, how we as an industry could address that. Speaking of advocacy, Justin is also an active member in SONA, songwriters of North America, the advocacy organization which I am also an active member, and I’m on the advisory board of SONA, the organization SONA, that’s actually how Justin and I originally met was, was in a SONA meeting. So check out that organization. It’s a great songwriters of North America. It’s a great advocacy organization for songwriters, on behalf of songwriters. It’s not representing this organization. Does not represent publishers. It represents songwriters. There’s a big difference, different intentions. You can find Justin on all the socials. Check out his he’s also the host. I should mention this. He’s the host of the podcast. Producer points, if you’re a producer, or just want to learn more about how producers work in this day and age, go check out his podcast, producer points. You can find that however you listen to podcasts, you can find Justin and the producer points podcast on all the socials. You can find all of us that make the show happen at Ari’s Take on the socials. You can find me at Ari her stand on Instagram. But right now, if you wouldn’t mind, just pause this episode, leave us a five star review on Spotify Apple podcasts. However you’re listening to this, give us a thumbs up on YouTube, hit the subscribe button. Hit the follow button if you want the show to keep populating your feed. Follow, subscribe, rate it. All that good stuff. But most importantly, go to ari’ssake dot com and get on our email list. That is the best way to stay in touch. We don’t know what’s gonna happen with the.
Unknown Speaker
Algorithm. So if you get on our email list, we’ll always let you know about new episodes and all the new things on the new music business. We think we should know about aristake.com get on that email list. All right, let’s kick into the show.
Unknown Speaker
Justin Gammella, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me, man. Hey, hey.
Ari Herstand
So you’re a, what we would call, I guess, a professional songwriter. You wear many, many other hats, and you have many other job titles and descriptions, and, of course, do everything, as most people in music do. But specifically, I’m really curious on how you came to be a professional songwriter with over 100 cuts. I mean, at least that’s what your your Spotify songwriter profile list that says you’ve written over 100 songs that have actually been released. I’m sure you’ve written many, many more songs that have not been released, but you had 100 cuts as a songwriter, and then I’m sure many more or others as producer and vocal producer and all that stuff, which we’re gonna get into. But how did you become this professional songwriter with a with official songwriter page, and all these cuts and all of that?
Speaker 1
You know, what I give I get that question a lot. Honestly, it’s time and it’s and it’s just doing thing over and over again. But the real story, in a nutshell, is been doing music since I was five years old, been producing without realizing I was producing since I was like 14 or 15 years old, went to college, got a degree in psychology. While in college, I went to the University of Buffalo. I’m a big Buffalo Bills fan, okay, right? I lived in Buffalo for a couple years, cool, but you know, all while in high school and in college, I was in bands, doing the thing, you know, playing live shows locally. And I apologize because I have a little bit of a cold, as people can tell, they recognize my voice, so might call for something in a bit. But you know, from there, I graduated and I was working a regular job. I was working at the local Jewish Community Center, the after school program. I was running it. I loved that job, and what were you doing there for I was running the after school program. I had been there for years already, and I was the music
Justin Gammella
guy at the day camp for a little bit, but it was just like an after school program. I was like, you know, just like helping the kids with homework and whatever, I worked at the day camp in the summers,
Ari Herstand
Ah I was a summer day camp song leader as well.
Justin Gammella
It’s, it was a you don’t inform me a lot about how to perform and how to engage an audience of children. At least, I love that job. It just paid so horribly, yeah, but because I had been there for so long, I had met this guy named Aaron bonus, and he, you know, was more successful than me with his band. And he was like, Hey, I have some connections in sync. We should, you know, you’re talented. We should do some stuff together. I was like, Sure, that sounds great.
Unknown Speaker
So I really that was my music school, these sync briefs of just forcing me to do music I had never really produced. I’d always done, like emo music, more band based music. And now they were like, we basically want you to rip off this, Imagine Dragons or this Miley Cyrus song and just do something different. And so we’re like, okay, so I really got my feet wet doing that, and we got a couple smaller sinks. But from that, we kind of by accident, made a band called Royal Tongues, and that project, just kind of by accident blew up. We put the music on SoundCloud just to do it, and it got some traction. Our manager at the time, he still never told us how, but he somehow found the music and like reached out,
Speaker 1
and we signed a publishing deal. We toured, we opened for a lot of really cool bands, and then we moved out to LA in 2015 ish, and the band lasted a year or two, but once the band ended, my management decided to keep me and helped me develop as a songwriter and producer, and because I already had a publishing deal, I already had such a huge foot in the door, and the strategy was, this was 2015 Well, I guess 2016 2017 EDM music was really big, and I got a lot of cuts, just top lining, Not as a singer. I mean, there’s like, a track or two that you can find that I’m singing on, but I don’t like to sing. And I got a lot of cuts just as a top liner or vocal producer, and then I would always try and sneak some production stuff in that I knew that they couldn’t recreate, to get production credits, and then just kind of get my wallet a little bit thicker. And, you know, almost 10 years later, we’re here doing music full time, thankfully.
Ari Herstand
Yeah, amazing. So this publishing deal, and I’m curious, because I don’t think many people know what that is, and I think a lot of people have familiarity with what a record deal is, but maybe not a publishing deal.
Unknown Speaker
Can you just break down what a publishing deal is? And, yeah, yeah. I mean, there’s two main different types of traditional publishing deals. There’s a co pub and there’s admin deals. And a co pub deal is you as a songwriter, not as an artist or anything else as a songwriter, are signing to a publishing company, and they’re representing your copyrights, and you’re basically saying, Hey, you give me an advance for X amount of dollars, and you will now represent my copyrights, and they will take 50% of the publishing not none of your writers share. So sometimes people forget about it, but like, in total, like, what ASCAP is collecting, it’s around like you’re keeping 75% if you look at it in a certain way, not always, but they’re splitting your publishing. That’s why it’s co-pub. But unlike other kinds of royalties, like mechanical or sync, it’s essentially, or is it still like they’re keeping 70% or is that more of like a 5050 kind of thing? That’s more of a 50/50 and then, like your writer mechanicals like you keep it’s all
Speaker 1
God, it’s so annoying and it’s very complicated.
Unknown Speaker
But yes, either way, what do publishing companies do? Right? That’s what I’m gonna say. So the whole point of you saying, Hey, here’s 50% of my pub right is that they’re supposed to represent your copyrights in the sense that, hey, we’re gonna help get these place. We’re gonna help get syncs for you. We’re gonna help develop you as a songwriter and put you in rooms and pitch your songs. And so they’re not just, you know, collecting your money. The whole point of signing a co pub deal, especially for songwriters who need a little bit more help than producers and artists, is that they are helping develop your career. That’s really where I believe we still see some development in the music industry is songwriters and publishers signing them early and developing them. Because, I mean, the whole thing is they, the earlier they sign, the cheaper they can get them. And then they, you know, it’s way less of a risk.
Speaker 1
But, yeah, that’s the whole point. And then admin deals, you know, usually they’re taking it widely depends. Sometimes they’re taking as low as 10% sometimes it’s usually around 25% of that publishing side, and their job is pretty much just to help you collect royalties. There’s just things that that publishers are able to collect because they have the infrastructure, especially like overseas and other places that make it that, essentially you’re giving them 25% but the idea is that you’re making more money with them because they’re collecting more of your money. And some admin deals, they will do some services for you. Not all and kind of just depends on what you’re looking for as a songwriter or a producer or an artist.
Ari Herstand
I’m curious on the you said, there’s still development in the publishing world with songwriters, how so
Unknown Speaker
I just feel like, at least with labels and artists, right? They’re, they’re more looking to pour gasoline on the fire nowadays, labels, they’re not, they’re not, as you know, even 10 years ago, they were really finding people super early and putting the time in. And, you know, as a producer, I’d be, they’d be like, Hey, we just have this new signing. Like, here’s kind of what they do. And you do it, and now it’s like, oh, this person already put out five songs. They have a fan base. They have an Instagram fan base, a TikTok fan base, whatever.
Speaker 1
Songwriters, it’s so rare for a songwriter who’s a no name, just to like, have a huge hit out of I can’t think of one unless they were an artist themselves, and it happened. So songwriters, they usually need a publisher to help them push their songs or for pitch or get them into rooms. Producers, not as much, because I can work and develop an artist myself. I can everything’s in house, right? Songwriters, they usually still need a producer or someone to to do the thing with them. So, yeah, that’s what I’m saying. Like, you know, if we’re speaking actual numbers, right? Like a publisher can sign, you know, the next let’s say Amy Allen, for your listeners who may not know, Amy Allen’s probably the most successful songwriter the last couple years, right? They can sign her, and she was signed like, 10 years ago. I believe, I forget to whom, but they signed her super young, and developed her for years. And that’s what they’re kind of looking for. They’re like, cool, I can sign this young songwriter, and I can give them anywhere, you know, from a $30,000 to maybe $150,000 depending on how you know, hot of a songwriter they think you are, and as opposed to, all right, like now you have a hit and now to sign you, it’s gonna cost us, you know, bigger six figures, maybe even seven. But they also only do that when they know the song is making X amount. They can, usually, like, figure that math out pretty easily. If it’s a huge hit, they’re like, all right, it’s not that big of a risk, yeah? But it’s, it’s good for them to so, you know, that’s what I mean. And like, you see, I see songwriters that they get signed really early, and it takes them years to even be like, recognized or have something come out,
Ari Herstand
yeah? And so. What’s happening during that time, during those years, where the publisher is sticking with them. And I’m curious, kind of, like, how a publishing deal works in terms of, like, what is the term? Does it work? Because on label deals, it’s like an albums and it’s like, you know, we have one album firm and three album options, or maybe it’s just a single firm and maybe EP, maybe not. You know, that’s understood. But on the publishing side, is it based on years? Is it based on how many songs they turn in? Like, what is, how does that all work, in terms of how long they’re working together and and, yeah,
Speaker 1
yeah, it’s changed a ton since the advent of streaming, okay?
Unknown Speaker
And basically years ago, like when I first signed I was in a thing called an MDRC, MRDC, whatever. I don’t even remember what it is, because it was basically what that is, is, is how many songs get released. It extends your option right by reputable not just like random things, but it has to be like, major label releases got it, oh, and right, and it got those have really gone away. I don’t know anyone that’s signing a publishing deal that have those in there. Thank God. They were really bad. They were better when it was able to get it was, it was easier to get more like album cuts. But now we live in such a single world. It’s, it’s, yeah, not the thing. So now it’s usually physically based, based around your advance, and then you have options. It’s usually every two or three years. And you
Speaker 1
know, that’s why a lot of people are weary of like signing big publishing deals young, because if you don’t pay back that advance, they can just choose to keep you in the deal for years and years and years, and it’s also their option, right? So let’s say, you know, you did really well, and you paid back your advance within the first three years in the option. It’s like, their option to retake you and, like, keep you going. So that’s it’s all it’s all money based now, which I do think is better? I think it’s a much more fair term than just like, these things was like, Well, you got X amount of cuts. Like, yeah, but I got one song that made everyone $5 million and now I’m stuck with you because I didn’t release the team.
Ari Herstand
Like, it’s better for some players, it’s that makes sense. And how do professional songwriters make money? It seems like a very basic question, but you alluded to it a little bit, is we’re in such a singles economy, and there aren’t really album cuts, whereas, like historically, if you got a cut on a hit album, even if it wasn’t the hit song, you’re still making that mechanical royalty, which you know this day and age in 2025 it’s 12.7 cents, is what you would make for every record sold. So if you had this again for a listener, it’s physical, copies, too physical, or even like it, or downloads, or downloads, yes, but so that’s like, you’re in the CD era. You know, there was, like, track three was the hit single that everybody bought the CD for $18 to listen to. But if you had track eight on it, you’re still getting 12.7 cents if you’re the only songwriter on that song
Unknown Speaker
every single CD. So if they sold, like, you know, 20 million CDs or something insane, you’re still you multiply that by like, 12.7 you make it okay, even if it wasn’t a hit song or whatever, right? You know, that’s exactly what it is. You could be a songwriter that didn’t have a hit necessarily, but you’re getting, like, album cuts that maybe fans love, and you were making, you know, a good this is in the 90s, where five figures is a lot different than, you know, five figures today, but you’re making five six figures, and you’re living a really nice, like, upper middle class, upper middle class lifestyle. Making money today for songwriters is infinitely harder with streaming. They it pays, you know, so, so, so, so little. You know, if my memory going off top my head, I think it’s like now, since we got the rates raised a couple years ago, it’s eight or 900 per million streams on the publishing and writing side. But then that’s split amongst all the writers and all of the publishers. So it obviously depends on how much of a percentage of the song you have, right? And let’s just say, in the pop world, it’s on average, like anywhere from three to five writers. You know, you’re looking at 20% of the song. Then you split in that 10% it’s so the numbers start to go down a lot, really, really, really quickly, right? And it’s why, you know, songwriters are now pushing to get master points, and really quick for your listeners, you get paid on publishing a master. Master is that the physical recording of that, and then the publishing is like the song writing, where you can, like, actually write it down, right? And the master gets a lot more money. Usually it’s around like, $3,500 $4,000 per million stream. Yeah, it’s almost like, it’s a loose calculation. About 80% of all the money that’s made from streaming is going to the master rights holder. So that’s a sound recording, typically, that’s a label or the artist. If there is no label, and then about 20% of the money or so, and this is loose, is going to the publishing, you know, publishing entity. So that’s the songwriters and the publishing company. So yeah, it’s heavily, heavily weighted, that the majority of.
Ari Herstand
Money is going to the master rights holders for the sound recording side. So when you’re talking about songwriters are pushing for to get some points, that means points on the master so they can get a little bit of those master royalties, because there’s so many more, so much more money that’s paid for streaming, for the master, for the sound recording than there is on the publishing side.
Speaker 1
Yeah, correct. And so, you know, how do songwriters make money? It’s there’s no easy answer. It’s tough. I know plenty of songwriters who, you know, you would look at their credits and you’re like, oh, wow, this person has hundreds of millions of streams. And then you’re like, oh, but they’re working a part time job still,
Unknown Speaker
and essentially how it goes is, as a songwriter, you’re not making a ton of money unless your song goes to radio, because radio still pays very well. Or, you know, that’s why everyone is really in going for K-pop and J-pop cuts. Is because those fans thankfully buy physical CDs. Wow. And so that’s what we’re saying where it’s a you can album cut, but now that album sold a million copies in Japan, and now you’re talking about five figures as a songwriter that you can like, put to the side you said, radio still pays very well. How? So,
Speaker 1
I mean, I don’t know the exact numbers off my head. I know it’s such a like, depending on where you are in the charts.
Unknown Speaker
But god, and I should know these numbers by heart, but I don’t, but you’re talking if you have, if you have, like a top 10 hit right radio airplay you’re getting. As a songwriter, you can be making, you know, like it they I forget the numbers, but it’s like you’re making like, a million dollars that year, if not more,
Speaker 1
as opposed to, like, you have the top 10 song on Spotify, and it never went to radio, which happens all the time. And you’re talking about if five, potentially six figures, if you’re lucky.
Unknown Speaker
And to clarify where you’re getting paid in radio, when it go, and why there’s such a difference there as, like, because I think just somebody on the outside is like, well, what’s the different? Like, Spot top 10 on Spotify, top 10 on radio. What’s the difference there? Why is radio pain and Spotify is not, is that a Spotify thing? Is that, like, where’s the money flowing and where’s that money come from? Yeah, it’s how Congress has decided to mandate payouts where radio, God the numbers, is just most of the money that the vast majority of money on radio is actually going to songwriters. It’s not going to the master right? Well, terrestrial radio doesn’t pay anything to the master rights holders. So it’s like we were talking about this, like 80/20 split or whatever on terrestrial radio. 100% of the money is going to the publishing side. And, you know, songwriters and whatever through and what I was getting on and correct me from wrong, but it’s all to performing rights organizations. So like ASCAP and BMI, and the only way that you’re really getting paid for radio is from performance royalties, right, right? Exactly. Honestly, you know more about that than I do, because
Unknown Speaker
it’s just like, Yeah, I know, like, the basics of what pays or what doesn’t, you know, but, yeah, but that’s the thing. It’s just like, you know, I’m looking at it, and so it’s, it’s like, as I’m looking at your your catalog on Spotify. And I’m seeing, you know, and I’m seeing these songs like, you know, Bella Poarches, single, “Build a Bitch”, 500 million streams on Spotify.
Ari Herstand
You know, did that song hit radio? Was that a radio hit?
Speaker 1
It did very little radio, yeah, the for various reasons. And I can’t get into it too much, they chose not to push it to radio, which sucked, like, hearing that just being like, oh, so I just don’t get like, you know, six or seven figures now, like, that sucks for your listeners. Like, radio campaigns cost money, and so usually, if, without getting too specific, if a label is choosing not to push something to radio, even though it was getting some radio airplay, like completely organically, it’s usually because they need something from the artist or from, you know, other things that are going on, because it costs them six figures to Just push the song to radio, right, right, and, and whatever. So, you know, like, that’s why only certain amount of songs are getting pushed right? Because it’s a big investment for labels. It really is to do that. And as much as I have a distaste for labels, I understand that argument. Yeah, it’s, you know, money is money at the end of the day,
Unknown Speaker
I’m curious. I mean, can you say “bitch” on the radio?
Unknown Speaker
It was on radio as “Build A Babe.” We had, we had a radio edit ready to go build a babe. Aha, okay, got it. We had a whole so, yeah, and, like, like, I said, it did get some radio airplay. Yeah, not a ton. So let’s talk about, like, the the writing process a bit. So on that song.
Ari Herstand
Build a bitch, build a babe, whatever. There’s 123456, songwriters listed on that. Talk about, how were there, like, six of you in a room going in a circle, being like, okay, like, you know, writing this song, and one of you had a laptop, one of you got a computer, like, paint the picture for me for how, like, a songwriting session works for, you know, this was released on a major label for, like, the, you know, major label artists like this. How does that work? I’m listening. Every
Speaker 1
song is going to be different, right? Sometimes there are six or seven people in a room, and because you’re at a camp, and I love those type of writing sessions, where you’re at camp, there’s two or three producers in a room, couple writers, we’re all vibing, doing whatever, and you that’s why, sometimes you get that many people on a song, and it’s awesome. Okay, you know, a song like this, it was, it started much in a much smaller room. It was actually done on Zoom, and because it was during COVID, actually, we wrote it, okay, now, gosh, during COVID. And, you know, I don’t give any house anymore like, this is so it was written with me, David Arkwright and Salem, and we actually were writing it with Salem in mind. And whenever I write with those guys, I always like to have a perspective. I’m like, who, even if, like, it’s not for you, like, let’s pretend it’s for you. Because I think it’s important for a song to have that like perspective of, like, I would or wouldn’t say this, and it just keeps it, I think, just get better songs like that. We wrote the song, and it was, like, mostly done, and Salem was like, I just doesn’t really feel like it’s for me. Let’s, like, pitch it around. And her manager knew Bella’s team, and basically Bella then worked on it and did some additional writing and
Unknown Speaker
produced a more produced version of my version with Ilese and suburban. So that’s why there’s, like, so many writers on there. Yeah, it’s kind of done in like two separate bits, and that’s a very usual major label kind of construct where it’s like, especially for the pitch world, where it’s like, okay, I’m pitching my song out, and then the artist says they artist has their team that they work on it with. And so basically, I was very hands off, like, once we showed it to them, she worked with Ilese and suburban, and like, did their thing and made it the song it was. They made a lot of really good choices that I wouldn’t have thought to have done. They sped it up, which was genius. You know, things like that, that song changes, yeah, yeah. So, right, because in an initial songwriting session, like, you’re essentially producing it out. I’m assuming you’re what they call, like the driver in a session. Are you the one, like at the computer, typically, or but you’re also a top liner. How does that work? Yeah, I’m like a, I don’t wanna say I’m a unique case, but I’m not. It’s hard for sometimes people like, place me in sessions, because they’re like, What do you do? And I Yeah, because I don’t really, I don’t like to cut a vocal, even though I can sing. So it’s like, whenever I’m doing a session, I’m like, please have a singer in there, because me cutting a vocal is just going to sound like a whiny email song, and no one wants
Speaker 1
that. But when I’m writing my processes, I’m super, super involved in the top line. I do, can I do? Think I’m a better top liner than I am a producer? That’s just my own valuation of myself. Yeah. And so, because I like to be so involved, like, you know, build a bitch is a good example of, like, I just kind of had that, like, first little riff, ready to go, not ready to go. But, like, I came up with it, and then we started, like, writing the top line, and then that was basically playing, and then we all kind of collabed on the top line, and that’s and then I produced it out a little bit more, like after the session. I don’t like to produce out a record so much because of how I like to work, and because I’m, like, I like to be so involved in the top line. And to me, top line is king, queen, whatever you want to call it. If that top line is not up to par, then I have, honestly no interest in producing it out anyway. So, you know, I want to make sure that I’m doing my best to make sure it’s as good as as can be.
Ari Herstand
So when you go into sessions and like you your publisher, and that’s, I think we talked about it. It’s like another role of a publisher, is they put people together to write songs, and so when they’re putting you in a room, yeah, I mean, I guess what is typically the room makeup, is that, like, you have a top liner artist, or, like, Salem in that session was theoretically going to be the artist, which it turned out she wasn’t, in the end. But is that kind of how it works? Maybe you’re paired with an artist and then paired with a like, Are you the person at the computer? Are you not or then you’re more work in the top line or in the back or,
Speaker 1
yes, like, 90% of my sessions are like this, where it’s I like to I love to work in threes or fours. I just think it makes the room more efficient. I will do one on one sessions, but that’s usually like, more like, singer songwritery stuff, and I’m like, and it’s an artist that I have a great relationship with, and we’re just writing songs, and then I completely worry about the production later. Sure, typically for me, it’s like, I say it’s like, I’m here. This is behind me, is like, all my gear, and then behind over here is, like, couches and stuff. And usually what I’m doing is, like, I said, like, I’m either here making kind of a very rough sketch, and then I’m turned around and I’m with the songwriters, or sometimes I don’t even start a sketch, and I’m just over there with the guitar, and we’re just writing a song. And so, you know, like, let’s say I’m with an artist. It’s usually me an artist, a top liner, and then maybe another top liner, or for pitch, it’s me and two other top liners or fourth or lately, I’ve been doing a lot of like CO pros, where, because I’m old and cranky and have kids, I try and have them to come to my studio so I don’t have to miss, you know, travel too much, but I have my studio set up where another producer can kind of just come in and just with one USB. See they’re in my system, and it’s got to try and make it as easy as possible. And they’re kind of more like building up the beat, and I’m kind of, which is, this is, honestly my favorite way to work, is they’re there, building up the beat, and I’m kind of like throwing ideas at them, and I go back and forth between the production and the top line. That’s my, honestly, my favorite, favorite, favorite way to work. But it doesn’t always happen.
Ari Herstand
Yeah, yeah. And I want to talk about the instrumental part of this that, you know, we call it the beat and the production or whatnot, but it’s whatever’s being created in the initial songwriting session. Is that, does that tend to turn into what the final production, the final instrumental ends up being a
Speaker 1
lot of the time. But I’m also not afraid to ever, like, rip everything down and just build it back up after Okay, yeah, there is, you know, there is something
Unknown Speaker
you’re reacting to certain sounds for a reason in a session. And when I’m making a part, or I’m playing a sound, it’s like there was a reason why. And so I usually, unless it’s causing a huge problem, I usually try and, like, keep it to that core. Most of my productions, it’s like there’s always something, at least the main thing from that first day, one thing, and then I’m kind of building around it. But my main focus as a producer is I’m always building around the vocal. I don’t if something is fighting the vocal, it goes away the vocal. I’m like, a very vocal first kind of producer, songwriter, first producer. So that’s what makes hits every decision. Yeah, and I see that you have, like, you know, vocal producers, kind of part of your job description, job title, and you have a whole list of credits vocal production. I mean, FINNEAS, you listed as a vocal producer on FINNEAS album, Optimist.
Ari Herstand
What is a vocal producer? What does that even mean?
Unknown Speaker
You know, I think it’s something that that’s come up more in the last, like, 10-15, years, because there was beginning to be this separation
Speaker 1
with more laptops, and we’ll call them classically, like beat makers, where it’s like, you have beat makers and you have top liners. And for a while they were, like, completely separate. For so long top liners were writing or for like, pre done beats. And I think what happened is a lot of those beat makers, this is my theory. I don’t know if it’s true, just theory. A lot of those beat makers are so good at making beats. They’re so good at making a kick hit, they’re so good at making, you know, whatever, hit. But they never work with vocals. They didn’t like they didn’t come up in a world of doing vocals. So they have no idea how to do it. They don’t know how to engineer vocal. They don’t know how to, you know, comp and tune. They don’t know how to give direction. It’s just because they didn’t have that practice. Me, I came I was always working with vocals because I was a singer. I was in bands. I never only did beats, I always worked around a song. And honestly, I didn’t have the best voice, so I got that’s how I got good at like, comping and tuning. I had to make myself sound good. But so basically, what ends up happening is a lot of times, like, you know, an artist will work with a really amazing producer who just like vocals aren’t their thing. They can make a vocal sound fine, but singers know how their vocals should sound, and they’ll a lot of the times, work with a vocal producer, and part of my job is, let’s say it’s a song that I didn’t write. I’m just vocal producing. Is I listen to the song I kind of like, and it’s honestly like, it’s a little tiny bit of songwriting, not that I should ever get publishing on it, but I’m thinking of the song, and I’m thinking about emotionally, what it entails, pocket wise, what should be long or short or kind of soft, or, you know, whatever. And the engineering thing is honestly kind of secondary to all that. I think what makes me personally good book producer is that I’m trying to get the emotion and the, you know, the pocket correct. And, you know, I just happen to be a decent engineer, so I get that part too, and then, yeah, it’s about figuring that out. Working with the singer, I also help them come up with harmonies. I help them come up with a lot of the ad libs. I come up with a lot of, like, background vocal parts, you know. So basically, my goal as a vocal producer is, I want to hear that acapella. Bucha and as a listener, you can still feel where things are bigger and smaller and that the song is moving and grooving just with the vocal and not having to rely on the track. I think that’s super important for pop
Ari Herstand
music. Yeah. How much do you try to get in a take from the singer versus what you feel you can kind of fix and post.
Speaker 1
I hate fix and post. There’s some times where you just really have to, yeah, listen, all my best vocal productions are always with the best singers. And, like, I don’t do nearly that much. I’m kind of just, like, giving them my two cents and comping together. Every singer is obviously different, right? Like, you know, I do a lot of vocal productions for on this great website called sound better. It’s a great way to keep the bills, you know, paid with, maybe not always the best singers, but I can get them to a place and there it’s a lot more work of, like, trying to figure it out and do the thing, and I really don’t like the thing that, like, oh, I can fix it and comp it together later, I try and get as much as I can in the room, so it makes it easier when I do have to fix things, and I just have more options available to me, and it’s just having done enough reps of this that I know what to get and what I don’t need, and I can kind of, and as we’re cutting the vocal, I’m kind of taking mental notes of, like, okay, they got it here. I still need this, like, last word, so I’m gonna have them do that last word a couple times. So even though I’m not actually comping at that moment, I’m mentally thinking about what they have done great and what they haven’t done, and making sure I get all that,
Ari Herstand
yeah, for typical pop sessions where you are vocal producing. So this is not just for the demo, or it’s not just the song in the room. I mean, how many takes Are you typically comping from?
Speaker 1
As many as it takes, right? Like I said, like, there are some singers who I can get five takes and got it sick, great, awesome. Yeah. It’s also song dependent, okay, you know, the same figure that takes five takes. Sometimes we’re trying to do a thing where,
Unknown Speaker
you know, a part of the song, it’s really impossible to sing and but I don’t want their breaths in it, because it’s something about how it’s affecting the pocket feels wrong. So I have to do, like, a lot more takes where it’s like, okay, you have to, like, sing this section now, because I don’t like that. You have to breathe here, because you’ll pass out otherwise. And then there are some people who they just it, you know, they need a second to figure out the song, especially, you know, if it was a pitch song, and it’s the first time they’re singing it, and they’re, you know, they hear it with, like, this great singer or not so great singer singing it, and they have to, like, make it their own. So sometimes it takes more than five takes. It takes, like, 20, 30, 40, takes for them to really understand it. I think, unless you’re trying not to tune your vocal, I think once you’re going over that it’s just overkill. A lot of people love to point to this, like, video of Billie Eilish, and finish being like, look, Billie did 100 takes. And it’s like, well, Billie is really trying not to like comp her vocal. I mean, I mean, tune her, but she doesn’t tune her vocal. And also, they release 12 songs every three years, so yeah, Billie has the time to, like, Go, and she also is now comping her own vocal to, like, go through. And at the time, their studio was FINNEAS his bedroom, so she could just, like, walk down, they could walk down the hall or whatever, right? But even, like, now, I mean, it’s like, still Studio, you know, they’re still comping in, like, FINNEAS his home studio, you know what I mean? Like, that’s kind of their workflow, and she’s doing it now, so, you know? And so people like to bring that up. I’m like, it’s a different thing. It’s, yeah, there’s, you know, I see no point doing that unless you’re really going for something specific. Yeah. No, that makes sense. You’ve mentioned this a couple times, pitch songs, and can you explain kind of the approach, and you’ve talked about a little bit. And just like the difference between when you’re writing a pitch song, and what that means and versus, I guess, when the artist is in the room, and I’m assuming that’s the song for the artist, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1
at its core, it’s not too much different. I’m still trying to write the best song I can. When you’re writing with an artist. They’re in the room, so you kind of have to, like, check in with them a little bit more often, because it’s like, is that something you would say? You know, how does this feel? But I also have conversations with artists a lot. This is kind of my approach, where I’m like, listen, we’re just gonna write a song today. I don’t care if this ends up being for you or if it’s not. I think artists sometimes they get too in their head and they like, stop an idea before it happens, because they’re like, Well, I don’t like that, or I wouldn’t say that. And it’s like, I don’t think you know what you would say quite yet, because you might write the song, and in six months from now, you might be feeling that, and you don’t even realize and that’s happened. So. So many times,
Ari Herstand
like, deception, right? It’s like, yeah, like, future crime, yeah.
Speaker 1
I saw this, like, really great John Mayer clip going around where he was, like, talking about, you know, someone was asking, like, this basic question, like, how do you know you’d like something? He’s like, Why do I have to like it? He’s like, sometimes I write something and I don’t like it in that moment, and it’s just because my like, my taste, right, my taste. And I was like, that’s 1,000% what it is. So much time. So I wish I could show, like every artist that clip and just be like, get out of your way. Just write songs. Sometimes I go back to a song you wrote two years ago and be like, Oh my God, I want to release this now. And that’s fine. And as me, as a producer, I’m like, great. Now you feel it like awesome, like, Let’s Let’s release it.
Ari Herstand
That’s so wild to me, because most of us, I think most artists, even songwriters, look at their old work and it’s cringy to them, whereas at the time, they loved it, and they’re like, oh, you know, at the time, it made a lot of sense, but now they it’s hard to even stomach or listen to. Is like, man, so much better now. But this is kind of almost the opposite, as in, like, challenging yourself to create something that your present self might not completely love, but your future self might, and it’s pushing yourself forward more or less in that direction. Yeah,
Speaker 1
and I think I try and do it, in a sense, to like, not even with that aspect who’s like you might like it soon. It’s more about like it, to me, it’s about taking pressure off and not being so precious about everything, where it’s like, Hey, man, like, we can write this song and maybe it’s not for you. And who doesn’t like having a potential hit song for pitch? Like, who doesn’t like that? You know, especially with like, these younger, developing artists, is like, Hey, you could use that money to, you know, push your career forward. So it’s, it’s really about just like, trying to stay in the moment and live in, like, a song by song world, as opposed to, you know, I even personally hate when artists were like, oh, I want to write about this, but I’ve already written, like, you know, I have five songs about this on the album. It’s like, okay, like, if you but if this is what we’re, you know, it’s usually already, like, when, like, we have the idea, and like, we have, like, maybe, like, a chorus idea about it, and they want to, like, change the subject, and I’m like, but this is what this is already why, why don’t we just see this through and maybe it, maybe it replaces one of those songs, or maybe it’s for pitch. And like, once I put like that, they’re like, Okay, yeah, let’s see. Let’s see how it goes.
Ari Herstand
Yeah, yeah. When you’re, uh, writing, you know, with an artist or your publisher is kind of putting you in rooms with various artists or other songwriters. I mean, you said this has shifted and changed a little bit now back in the day when you first started. But are you always like looking for a major label cut? Are you hoping for like a major label thing. Is there a difference between writing for
Unknown Speaker
a like, social media star or, like a, like a really hot indie artist that’s doing really well, versus like, you know, maybe an artist that is this, like major label darling, who might not have music out yet, or something you’re working on their debut album, and is there just, like, a different intention, or different workflow or process, or, yeah, just approach. I don’t, I don’t think there’s it changes my approach, what, what the approach comes before the session happens, and choosing what kind of projects you want to work on. I think one of the biggest changes that’s happened is that years ago, these, like, major label projects, were, like, so much more open to, like, throwing, you know, let’s say, like, a Dua Lipa type, into more rooms. And what’s happening now is that which I think is good. I think there’s good and bad for both reasons. But now it’s like an artist, they’re like, Okay, well, I work with this, you know, this producer, like these, you know, look at Sabrina Carpenter, right? Like she works with, like, Amy Allen, Steph Jones, Jack Antonoff, and, oh, my god, I forgot the other two dudes names, forgive me, but, you know, she, like, works with that crew, essentially, and it’s insular, and it’s really cool, and they can make really great stuff like that. It wasn’t like that years ago, where it really was more open, and there was so much more pitch opportunities happening. And that’s even like that with, like, a lot of indie projects that are like, once a project is already buzzy and out there, it’s usually because they have their people already, and it’s a lot harder to, like, break into those types of projects. I personally try and get in early, as early as I can, with projects where it’s like, they’re not even signed yet. You know, they had a little video on Tiktok go viral, or whatever. I think the earlier you can get into things, the better. And so you can be that producer or songwriter for that artist and come up with them, as opposed to, like, try and wedge your way into, like, a project that’s already successful, which is, like, it’s so hard, if not impossible, to do nowadays, it’s only possible if you, like, happen to write a hit song, and now you’re a hot songwriter, and it’s like, okay, yeah, now you can do a day with, you know, Sabrina, because she, like, thinks you’re hot shit.
Speaker 1
It’s not the best strategy, in my opinion, yeah,
Ari Herstand
yeah. So with the with the pitch.
Unknown Speaker
Songs. I mean, the process where maybe you’re, you guys write a song together, you’re like, all right, it’s not for me. It’s not for the artist, whatever. Let’s Let’s pitch it. You give it to your publisher or something. It’s like, hey, pitch it around. And then an artist, let’s say, a big star, wants to cut it, or something like that. And then what are the discussions after that, because it has been discussed, and there’s been, like, the you know, bit of controversy around this practice, and we’ve seen these things go around the internet, and I think we’ve chatted a little bit on various Instagram posts here and there, about, like, when the artist who might be the superstar, you then see them as a co writer on the song they’re not participating in publishing, which maybe they had nothing to do with the songwriting. Or like, you wrote the song, you sent it to them, you hear the song come out. Like, huh, they didn’t change a word. It’s identical. It’s pretty much the same melody. It’s the song we wrote. But why are they cut into publishing? Talk about that practice a little bit. I don’t know if you’ve been seeing these. Like, John Belion, things go around lately, showing some of these, like Justin Bieber demos, and you’re like, oh, that’s the song. Like, Bieber didn’t do anything.
Ari Herstand
You get songwriting credit. You get songwriting
Speaker 1
credit. Listen, I think
Unknown Speaker
there are certain artists that get up to sometimes 50% and it’s kind of like, they call it like the Elvis tax, right? Because Elvis used to do it back in the day. Personally, I think that’s really wrong. I think that’s something that Ross from “And The Writer Is,” as the songwriter advocate, we’re all fighting to, like, have that stop and stop cutting into our share. But with that being said, I’ve done this a lot because I do think it makes a little bit more fair. Sometimes there’s like, a tit for tat, and I think this is where songwriters can kind of sneak their way into the master a little bit, or it’s like, okay, like your artist, for whatever reason they want to have songwriting credit, whether it’s to, you know, build up their publishing catalog so they can sell it eventually, whether they just want to feel like they’re a songwriter, whatever the reason is cool. If I’m going to give you 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50% of the song I want either a songwriter fee or I want a master point.
Speaker 1
That’s those. That’s like, really the only time I’m okay with, personally, with artists getting songwriting. That’s kind of how I operate now. I’m really, you know, adamant I have a little bit more power, quote, unquote, because I’m the producer, and I’m controlling that master recording, and I can just be like, Well, fuck you guys, like, I’m not sending you anything, right? Song, artist is a little bit harder for, you know, I had a situation, not so much, with the artists trying to get publishing that they didn’t deserve because this artist wrote the song. But I think it’s a good story for context. We had a song, and it was, like a song that I wrote the verse to, and then I guess, like, the without telling me, which is a whole nother thing, but the artist, like, brought that verse in with other people, or they just, like, wrote a completely separate chorus, and then, like, with her producer, they like, combined my verse with, like, their pre and chorus, and it came out really awesome. And, like, without doing that, the song wasn’t going to come out. So I’m happy they did it. And then they came out, and they were like, Hey, here’s the proposed splits, blah, blah, blah. And I actually am not a producer on this, because they didn’t use anything from my original version, which fine. And this is just me proving that I will do it as a songwriter as well. Is that, Hey, I can’t agree to release this until the songwriters have a share of the master, like, let me know. And then I immediately, I luckily had all the other songwriters numbers. I was like, guys, let me know what you want to do here. I’m fine being the asshole and, like, putting my foot down. But if everyone else is just like, wants the song to come out, I’ll back down. I always, I’m I only care about what the other songwriters want to do. So if you’re the songwriters really want to just be like, hey, it’s not worth the fight. We just want this cut. I will happily back off. But, and anyway, in this case that like, they’re like, no, no, let’s, let’s do it. And we all kind of, like, spoke beforehand. I think this is how it has to go. We spoke beforehand about, like, cool. We think we should get this amount of the master and see what they say. And luckily, this artist came back, because she’s also a songwriter who has random cuts. They were basically said like, hey, artists respect songwriters. They’re songwriter as well. We’ll give you this amount of it wasn’t even a fight, and it was beautiful, and it was great. And we’re all super happy with the end result there. Point of the story is that as songwriters, we just have to ask for things. And I know it’s scary, but the more that you can, kind of like get with the other songwriters and come and negotiate as United Front, the better.
Unknown Speaker
You know, that’s my that’s great. Are you seeing more? Because this is a, this is a new phenomenon. I’ve never heard of songwriters getting master points, getting paid for, I mean, they get, you know, the their publishing money, which comes in the form of mechanical royalties, performance royalties, you know, if there’s the sync.
Ari Herstand
That kind of stuff, but never master royalties. That’s never been a thing that songwriters ever forget. So this is this new phenomenon, and I and I’m curious, like, just in the 10 years or so that you’ve been a professional songwriter, as you’ve seen, the tides turn, like you said, you know, if the artist wants to take from there’s a tit for tat, they’re going to take some of the publishing, I’m gonna take some of your master royalties, that kind of a thing, in terms of, like, you also mentioned a songwriter fee. What is that? Is that becoming more common. Are you getting paid to show up, to write for sessions, or only if the song comes
Speaker 1
out? It’s not to write for sessions, right? Like, I do think that should be a thing, but I think it’s gonna be a lot harder for publishers. I’m not publishers, uh, labels, to labels write down on, um, no, it’s usually once the song is coming out. You’re basically just asking for like a songwriter, for you to like, you can negotiate a bunch of different ways. I like to do it where it’s like, Hey, you’re paying us for the time we spent on the song, or you’re paying us for first usage that, technically, like, years ago, people used to get fees for the first usage. Like, that was kind of the norm. This was, like, long, long time ago, yeah, and yeah, it’s, you know, it’s just because of how the industry has changed that we need to adapt. You know, like years ago, like, producers didn’t get publishing but and then they and then they saw the value that, like, it was kind of the opposite problem, like producers, problem. Like, producers were like, not really, they got that initial fee, but then the song would be huge, and then be like, Oh, I walked away with like five figures, and like, all the songwriters were walking away with like seven like, what’s going on here? So we started, like, being like, okay, producers, like, you gotta get some of the publishing now too, which a lot of people go back and forth on whether they should or should not. For me, it’s a case by case basis. But I also believe giving some order points, to be very honest, it’s necessary, but it’s kind of a band aid solution. I do believe the real solution is to and this. And not a lot of people gonna like that, that Spotify should, you know, and other DSPs should be probably twice as much monthly, and that all that extra money should just go to publishing. And I think we fix a lot, like songwriters will make more money that way, 1,000% than having, like, a point on the master. But that is
Ari Herstand
significant. Major labels would never agree to that if there’s no hopefully
Speaker 1
it doesn’t even have to affect them. That’s my whole point. It’s like, it’s not, it’s hopefully, my idea is that, like, and it’s probably not going to happen for years, but that we raise rates enough we’re spot up as to raise rates, their rates, and then it’s like labels are still going to pay the same, like you’re still getting your, you know, four or 5000 per million, and now publishing is just going to get around that same That’s the dream. That’s
Ari Herstand
a nice idea, if I know anything of how the major labels operate, is that if the pie is getting bigger, they’re going to want to, they’re going to want, of course, they’re going to want that. But yes, I you know in sync, it’s customary that 50% half the money that is paid out for the upfront sync fee goes to the master rights holder, and half the money goes to the publishing, to the songwriters.
Unknown Speaker
And it just doesn’t work that way in the other sides of it, in streaming, which is the, you know, the biggest piece of the pie these days, which I think it should, I think half it should be split, 50/50, right? You know, there’s historical reasons why they’re not like the labels would say historically. Well, we have to pay for manufacturing, and we have to print, and we have to, you know, what’s like? They do that really, they click a button, right? So, you know, yes, and so it’s interesting how this industry is kind of evolving. And you’re kind of, you know, you are at the front end of this is you’ve kind of seen this now being a songwriter in the streaming era where, like, you started right essentially, when streaming kind of became a thing, you’re seeing kind of you have the publishing deal on the old model, where it was just about number of cuts you turn in, you know, major level cuts, whatever, songs. And then now you’re a songwriter in this new era where everyone’s kind of swimming in the dark here and just kind of figuring it out as we go. Yeah. I mean, listen, it’s with technology. Things move so much faster. We’re now having AI come in and not talk about AI too much, but I’m hoping the positive side of AI is that it will help us collect money a lot more easily, and therefore, you know, get more and not lose as much. Hopefully it’ll help major labels as a producer, it’s, I did a whole episode of this on my podcast about just trying to get production fees and pretend like get paid on producer points. It takes a long time. There’s so many hoops to jump through by design. And hopefully, you know, those companies will use AI to help pay out those, you know. And then there’s a whole AI copyright thing, and that’s another conversation that, like, now, you know, whatever. But yeah, yeah, a lot do Yeah, do you use AI in the creation process at all? No, I
Unknown Speaker
Is, AI like, Chatgpt. And solving is, like, kind of, like a super thesaurus, thesaurus, yeah. And it’s like, you know, I’m like, I want this word that I need it to rhyme with this like, give me, like, a couple other words that I can maybe use. And I think it’s really, really good for that. It just like, shows me words. It’s basically I was using things like rhyme zone and already using the sources. It just this is just like, way more efficient of a way to do it. I use a lot for my podcast. I couldn’t do it without it, as far as
Unknown Speaker
You know, there’s that Opus app that, just like, pumps out clips I like, and it does a pretty good job it. I mean, yeah, I think so. I mean, I’m seeing the numbers go up. I mean, listen, like the podcast is not making any money, at least yet. And I am a full time producer. I have two kids. I do not have the time, and I would love to pay someone to do that, but I don’t have, like, I can’t justify it. And I even have interns. I have two interns that helped me with this, and I still need something AI to help me with a lot of this stuff. So, yeah, like, Listen, I’m one of those people that I believe AI is going to be amazing. It’s also so, so scary.
Unknown Speaker
And, yeah, so long story short, in the creation of music, not too much, I would love an AI tool that, like, I can, you know, it’s like, a VST where it’s like, give me a sound of a bass that does this and, like, that’d be sick, but, yeah, they don’t have that. There’s no plugin that you can, kind of, like, I remember that this, this old plugin from way back in the day, I think it was called Beat Detective or something. And it could essentially quantize drums to a you’d like, pick a drummer that you liked and like their Groove or pocket, like, it’d be like Questlove’s drum. And you’d like, just like, I want to these drums to sound like Questlove’s drumming would add, like, Questlove’s pocket over the drums, or something like that. I feel like there’s, there’s got to be some AI tools that have now, you know, things like that have, have been around for quite some time. As far as, like, there is this, excuse me, there is this plugin right now. It’s not really that great yet, called Synth GPT, that is basically trying to do what I’m saying. I think it’s still maybe, like, a couple years away from that, yeah, because, like, I mean, with AI, it’s, like, it is getting harder and harder to tell. But like, if you’re looking at it and, like, you know, not thinking about it for a second. You can almost always tell it’s aI just by how it sounds or how it feels. It’s always like, a little bit degraded, something’s always a little bit off about it. But there’s a lot of, you know, and then there’s a lot of, like, utility tools that I would love AI to, like, help me do it’s like, you know, bring down all my breaths with a click of a button. Bring down all like, oh, yeah, as is, they have them, but they’re just, like, not quite there yet, time saving things like that, which is what I think AI’s gonna be great at. Like, you know, I say it in every, almost every single Podcast. I’m just trying to get back inside, you know, 20 feet away to go eat dinner with my kids. Like, that’s if I have tools that can help me do that. Great, I think, yeah. And I that’s the thing is, like, we’ve gotten way past the point of, is AI good or bad, or is it ethical around that’s way too complicated. It’s an impossible question, because right now, AI is integrated into virtually everything that everybody does. You can’t even search on Google without touching AI. It’s like, you know, but it’s integrated into every program, everything that we use, has some form of AI. So it’s not like, is it good or bad? We’re past that point. It’s here. It’s here, whether you like it or not, here, it’s here. But like, how we use it is really the that is where the ethics come into play, as in, like, is this an ethical way to use it? Now, simplifying your workflow? Absolutely. I think it makes total perfect sense. I mean, you know, we all use it to simplify our workflows and all of that. It’s like, but typing into suno or audio like, make a song that sounds that you like, make, write me a hit song that sounds like Sabrina Carpenter, and it pumps it out and it sounds like a Sabrina Carpenter B side, or something like that. And then you, you know, distribute that, and then it’s just like, literally, a person at a keyboard, all right, that’s too far. And literally that, that there’s, I don’t know if you saw there’s, like, a song that is, is trending on Tiktok right now, yeah, yeah. I don’t want to say because I want people to look it up. But like, I looked at it the other day, like the songs that a million streams, which means that guys made like, $4,000 off it because,
Speaker 1
yeah, yeah, it’s Spotify is being really horrible. And not they can. They’re just choosing not to. They’re not making AI music not payable, and they need to make listen, I if people want
Ari Herstand
to listen tech that that’s the problem. It’s not
Speaker 1
super impossible. There are ways to do it, and they’re making technologies that are going to make it more and more easily able to do it. But, like, also, if it’s, like, there’s a song blowing up and it’s and we know it’s AI, then Spotify should just take action. Be like, Nope, you don’t get paid. Like, it’s it, yeah, once we know it’s big, like, it should be, it’s because it’s taking money, how it’s all pooled and.
Unknown Speaker
Those taking away money from real creators and real artists and like, that’s my thing is, like, I know if people want to listen to AI music and it makes them happy, by all means, listen to AI music and like, do that? Do I believe that it should be taking money away from, like, actual, real life humans? No, absolutely not. It shouldn’t, right, right, right, right? No, that’s a good point. And there are ways, as the system is currently set up, there’s no real ways to detect it, or at least simple ways, straightforward ways, but in the workflow of distribution, that could be a point that the DSPs require the distributors to put through these checks. And if it is AI, they have to click. They have to click it. And if, and if they don’t, there has to be punishment. Where, if it says, hey, if this song blows up and we find out it’s AI and it’s not, then, like, you are now banned. Like, there need, there needs to be some Yeah, and it’s just like, just put the credits in. And that’s like, not hard. It’s just like, Okay, who played what, and who produced what? And if you, like, say that you did all of it at some point, if it blows up. You’re just, like, open up your Pro Tools session. Like, open up your Ableton. Like, let me see that you actually did it or whatever. I don’t think we’re gonna get there, but yeah, no, that’s fascinating.
Ari Herstand
So yeah, and I hear that, you know, when you talk about on your producer points podcast, like, you guys get, get super nerdy at times, into the gear and into the plug in the session. For the people listening right now, who are producers and want to get deep into the weeds on that, I definitely highly encourage you to go listen to producer points, because it is very fascinating, and you jump around to all different topics. And yeah, it’s a great listen. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, so Well, Justin, this has been a very wide ranging conversation. I appreciate you going, hitting all different aspects, and we could keep going. But I have one final question that I ask everyone who comes on the show, and that is, what does it mean to you to make it in the new music business?
Speaker 1
Honestly, I always tell myself, especially now that I have kids that my goal is, if I’m making music, and it’s me helping me pay the bills and I’m not doing anything else, then I think you’ve made it in the new music business, right? You You’ve made it in the music industry, and you feel fulfilled. That’s such a big thing, too. You know, I mentioned earlier, I started out with sync when I was making money from that for the first time, like, not much, for the first time, like, not much. It was just, like, kind of maybe paid a month’s rent every now and then. I was so happy. I was so stoked. And then when I was in the band and I was work, and that was my full time job, I was so stoked. But then the band stopped, and then had to work a part time job again, and I was a little less stoked, but, and now that I’ve been, you know, seven, eight years, I’ve been doing this full time, and that, to me, is what’s amazing. There’s so many different ways you can do it. You can do it at traditional pop producer, you can do it as a content creator. You can do it as a podcaster, you know, whatever, however you want to do it, and it makes you happy. That’s, that’s the goal, that’s the end that’s the end game.
Unknown Speaker
Just again. Thanks so much. That was great. Thanks, Ari. All right, have a good one, buddy. Today’s episode was edited by Ari Davids with music by Brass Roots District and produced by all the great people at Ari’s Take.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
