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This week on the New Music Business podcast, Ari sits down with Ash Avildsen, founder of Sumerian Records. Ash shares the story of building one of the most influential independent labels in modern rock and metal, from booking DIY tours in the MySpace era to helping artists break into arenas.
During this episode, Ari and Ash dive into artist development, the evolution of touring, music video economics, social media virality, the ethics of tour buy-ons, and why building an artist brand matters more than ever. Ash also opens up about expanding Sumerian into film, the future of entertainment brands, and why he believes music videos deserve a better business model.
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sumerianrecords/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sumerianrecords
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04:21 – Ash’s Journey from Touring Musician to Founding Sumerian Records
08:04 – Why Ash Left Booking to Focus Fully on the Label
12:00 – MySpace, TikTok, and How Artists Break Today
17:30 – Scenes, Community, and the Evolution of Heavy Music
22:16 – Artist Development and Getting Bands to Their First 500 Tickets
25:22 – The Ethics and Reality of Tour Buy-Ons
31:49 – Discovering Artists in the Streaming Era
35:15 – Why Music Videos Still Matter
49:00 – Building Sumerian Beyond Music Into Film and Media
56:00 – Ticketing, Industry Frustrations, and What It Means to “Make It”
Edited and mixed by Ruben Zarate
Music by Brassroots District
Produced by the team at Ari’s Take
Order the THIRD EDITION of How to Make It in the New Music Business: https://book.aristake.com
Transcript
Ari Herstand (00:00.824)
So Ash, give me a little bit of your background. know, Sumerian, this record label is very well established. mean, you’ve been going for 20 years, but in the rock and kind of the hardcore space, it’s one of these labels that has stood out, stood the test of time. A lot of notable bands and artists that everyone has heard of have passed through your label. Some are still on your label.
Give me a little bit of just kind of your background, why you started it and kind of the ethos of the label throughout the years.
Ash (00:36.988)
Um, I, so I, used to tour in a band and I was a promoter and also a booking agent for other bands. So I really just learned being an artist, uh, being a promoter, being an agent. And, um, at the time my band was doing, you know, pretty good in like the club circuit, like four or 500 tickets headlining. And we were doing, you know, good support tours. And then I.
I started getting approached by other bands to book for them because of how I was doing for myself. And then I started building up a great roster of a lot of metal and hardcore bands. And because of MySpace, a lot of these bands, which is really the kind of the first online peer to peer discovery that was like lightning in a bottle,
these bands were drawing like hundreds of kids all over the country without even having a record out, without having distribution. And when I was trying to help them.
Ari Herstand (01:33.08)
peer to peer lightning. Are you talking about like the naps or lime wire? Because I mean, like the file sharing era? Or what do mean by peer to peer lightning in a bottle?
Ash (01:42.234)
Well, in the sense that like you, someone could find out about music online from how their friend was listening to in the sense that like the theme song, like every MySpace page had like a theme song. then they had MySpace specifically is what was doing it. And then like also the top eight was very powerful. Cause then you could look at a person or a band and see like these are the other, you know, people or artists that they’re, you know, giving,
Ari Herstand (01:55.79)
the MySpace era, yes.
Ash (02:11.344)
you know, just props and awareness too. So it really spread so fast for so many artists because of that. And then when I was trying to get these bands that I was the booking agent for record deals, because they were unsigned, the labels were either offering them very…
like old school draconian deals or even more times than not they just didn’t understand like this new wave of heavy music and so based on my credibility as an artist and and on how i was doing as an agent with them i just offered them direct
deals that started off as like 50 50 handshake deals, net split profits, and then kind of just took off from there. and then continued to do it and grow it and just try to have like a buy artists for artists mentality with how we dealt with everyone and, and the strategy. And, also back then, and maybe probably even now it was harder to get a really good booking agent than it was even to get a record deal. So the fact that I could get all my bands on tour and I really knew like promoters and which clubs and
Ari Herstand (02:54.573)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (03:16.616)
which cities and took the majors versus the secondary versus the tertiary routings very seriously. That was a big secret weapon with some, well not a secret weapon, it was a very obvious weapon, but it was just very, very powerful of a tool to be able to get them all on tour as their record label.
Ari Herstand (03:26.765)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Ari Herstand (03:38.635)
Right. So getting them on tour as the record label, mean, that, you know, that’s something that labels can kind of, kind of help facilitate, but you as like acting booking agent, I’m curious, you know, when you first started out, were you differentiating, kind of you as the booking agent versus you as the label and you said this 50-50 split, was that on, you know, record sales or were you kind of doing this like
I’m a Swiss army knife, you know, come work with me and I can kind of handle everything right now. I’ll be essentially your manager, your booking agent, your record label. And it’s a, it’s a partnership.
Ash (04:13.212)
No, it wasn’t like that. Because I only had a couple bands on the label starting out for the first year. I had probably 30, 40 plus artists on the booking roster. These were all just handshake agreements. a couple of them I started doing deals with. And back then distribution was still a pretty big deal to get. When I started it, was like,
Ari Herstand (04:17.207)
Okay.
Ari Herstand (04:27.574)
Okay. Got it.
Mm-hmm.
Ari Herstand (04:35.726)
Because we’re talking physical.
Ash (04:37.948)
Physical and also digital like Spotify, I think started the same year I did, but it wasn’t like a thing. it was, know, 2006 was pretty much what a lot of people would say was like the worst year in the business. Like physical was dying. know, Tower Records was the first Tuesday they stopped taking new albums was the Tuesday that we put out our first one, which was very like that.
And then, know, best by FYE, everyone was like, you know, shrinking space and the pirate deck was huge and streaming really hadn’t become like a force yet. So it was predominantly iTunes and physical. But yeah, everyone, like at the time, the sentiment like…
Ari Herstand (05:14.156)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (05:19.446)
in the entertainment business and also in like the smart money world or whatever was like, record business. That’s too bad. What happened to you guys, man? What a shame. Like it was just like you guys. And I was like, no, there’s yeah, like recorded music’s too too important of an art form, you know, for society in general to just like go away. I just kind of, you know, kept the faith that one day it would fix itself. And it still hasn’t fixed, but it’s lot better than it was 20 years ago.
Ari Herstand (05:31.8)
pay.
Ari Herstand (05:45.293)
Yeah.
Ari Herstand (05:48.719)
Yeah, Yeah, I mean, so you had a fairly large roster on the booking side. You’re just kind of getting the label off the ground. Tell me about that journey or what made you decide to kind of lean more into the label side? And then, I mean, was there a time when you kind of shut down the booking or has that always been kind of part of the business?
Ash (06:13.872)
Yeah, I shut down the booking. So I had my own agency for years after working at a, I went from being indie, like in my bedroom, then joined a larger agency, then went back out to be independent. And it got to the point to where I don’t think anyone
I mean, no one that I knew of was like the CEO of a record label at the level that Sumerian was at that time, and also of a booking agency. And we had like hundreds of artists on the roster on the agent side, and we had several, you know, agents and it got to the place to where I, I just felt like there wasn’t enough time in the day to truly do both at a great level. And then I was also starting to explore film. And so I made the decision to get entirely out of booking.
Ari Herstand (06:42.008)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (07:04.126)
mainly because of time management and also I found it that what I truly enjoyed in my like superpower was on the creative side and
on the booking side outside of like picking the artists to package, you know, the routing, the city selections, like the tour poster, outside of the creative, you know, fingerprints you can put on touring. It was a lot of just like business deal sheets, deal points.
you know, going back and forth on money and ticket prices and all these things that just aren’t really creative or fulfilling. It’s a very linear job. And I just felt like it wasn’t the use of my time. And it was a hard decision because I was really good at it. Like it was, it was, you know what I mean? Like it was like, and I spent years, I used to get out of bed and just love it, you know, it cause it was so exciting. But I realized that
Ari Herstand (07:47.799)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ari Herstand (07:55.66)
Yeah.
Sure.
Ash (08:04.954)
the excitement that I had of being an agent was because I was breaking these artists and taking them from like, you know, the garages into getting them touring careers. And I could still do that as, as the label, but have a much more like fulfilling role in all of it. So yeah, I got out, never looked back.
Ari Herstand (08:20.6)
Sure. Tell me about the breaking. Yeah. Tell me about the breaking artists aspect of it all. And how has that shifted over the years? you know, from like, I, even from the touring scene, but because I feel like the metal scene, the hardcore scene, similar, you know, I’ve seen overlaps with hip hop and it’s this weird thing where it’s like, you know, musically it’s not, you wouldn’t necessarily put them in the same category.
But I’ve always like seen there’s like this underground kind of DIY ethos that has been maintained in these scenes. for better or worse, you know, there are, because the genre is so specific and there is such a dedicated diehard fan base, that you know, there’s this whole just kind of like, community of people that will get into this world. And as,
bands start to pick up. mean, I would imagine they kind of play off each other and they lift each other up and like, there’s a community in the scene and while it’s still a niche, it’s a very powerful, strong one. mean, have you seen it evolve over the years and how have artists broken maybe differently back then versus today?
Ash (09:36.336)
Well, now they’re breaking faster because it’s just become so much more mainstream from XM radio into just like zeitgeist of, you know, rock and metal and emo and all these, you know, genres that have have become bigger than they ever were specifically on the like.
Ari Herstand (09:42.861)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (09:59.62)
anything that leans more of the underground. You the last big wave for rock music, in my opinion, was like the late 90s. There were some in the early 2000s, but then it became quite quiet.
Ari Herstand (10:07.95)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (10:13.18)
And now, you know, these bands are selling out arenas in a day and they’re young. I mean, it’s been, it’s been a while, at least for hard rock. When you had a singer in a band that was under 30 years old, that was putting up those numbers. It was like that back in the day in the eighties and nineties, there were lots of guys in their 20s selling out arenas in rock and roll, but then it would weigh and a lot of it went more underground and some of it went more extreme. then, you know, indie rock and kind of more of a minimalist approach to the show business of all of it became what was like the focus.
Ari Herstand (10:29.283)
Right.
Ash (10:43.204)
And then other genres kind of took the forefront of what was dangerous and what was pop culture. And then now it’s swinging back to rock. As far as how it’s changed over the 20 years, mean, one thing I think that there’s a big difference, and this is probably like a sound bite or something, like there’s a big difference between breaking a song and breaking an artist. Those are two different things. And a lot of record labels are happy just to break the song because that’s the horse they have in the race is the streaming.
Ari Herstand (10:44.334)
Yeah.
Ari Herstand (11:05.614)
Okay. Mm. Say more.
Ash (11:13.776)
for us specifically in the world of music we’re in, also just for like the ethos of the label and the the feeling of success as like an executive, you know, breaking the artist is way cooler than than breaking just the song. Breaking the song can be very profitable and it’s great. And if you can break them both together, then you’re really in a great place, you know.
But I think the way it’s changed is that it might be a bit easier. Actually, well, I think it’s a lot easier now as far as how quickly it can happen because of the, really just because of two things, because of the internet, how big social media is and the virality of things that can happen with reels and you know.
the way that you can place a song. Like if you look at what happens with TikTok where everyone’s like placing the song in their videos, like that goes back to when I started Label. Like the original form of that was the MySpace page. Because when you went to and they were playing a song, it was like you were in their bedroom and like, this is my wallpaper. are the books I like. These are the songs I like. These are the, you know, movies I like. And it was this great way of getting such personality on a person that honestly like it’s never been replicated. I mean, you
Ari Herstand (12:10.04)
Mm-hmm.
Ari Herstand (12:14.615)
Hmm
Ari Herstand (12:20.142)
Alright.
Ari Herstand (12:30.926)
Honestly, like, it’s never been replicated. I mean, you can like dig around and get a vibe on someone, but the way the MySpace page was…
Ash (12:33.712)
like dig around and get a vibe on someone, but the way the MySpace page was, that literally laid out like interests, hobbies, theme song, it was so, so well done. But that’s what you see now when things go viral on TikTok. It’s similar science of what MySpace was when everyone was like picking the same song as like the theme song to their page. And that’s how people were discovering it.
Ari Herstand (12:42.466)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Ari Herstand (12:58.382)
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Ash (12:59.29)
So I think in that regard, it’s gotten easier just because social media has like taken over everything. And also like in 2006, not everything was like a smartphone and social media scrolling on your phone. There’s more noise to cut through now.
Ari Herstand (13:09.91)
Right.
Ash (13:14.972)
But the other big thing, at least for the genres that I grew up in is like before everything was social media, I felt like it was like very underground in the sense that like, if you knew about this world of music and you got a flyer and you like came to a show, you were like in on something. You know what mean? It wasn’t it wasn’t something you saw on the radio or on TV. And then it became like part of your like cultural identity that like you were in the hardcore scene or you’re in the punk scene or in the metal scene. And now it’s all become very mainstream, which is fucking awesome.
Ari Herstand (13:29.27)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ari Herstand (13:36.119)
Right.
Ash (13:44.956)
Awesome. Like, I think everyone stoked on that. I just hope like a lot of the morals and the ideals of the community like stay there as it becomes more into pop culture.
Ari Herstand (13:46.211)
Yeah.
Ari Herstand (13:56.299)
Yeah, well, that’s when I guess I’m define what you mean when you say breaking in artists, like what does that mean to break an artist and has that shifted like are that have the goalpost shifted because it’s become more mainstream? Do you define breaking in artists differently now than you did 1015 20 years ago, because it is now more widely accepted?
Ash (14:20.47)
No, don’t look of it as different. The biggest thing, and this is part of when signing an artist, like determining what the goals are, like where do they wanna be? Some artists know specifically because of how they either present themselves or what their music is, like there’s a ceiling to how big they can get. And their kind of musical heroes and idols are at a certain level. And then there’s other artists that, you know.
Ari Herstand (14:25.793)
Okay.
Ari Herstand (14:42.839)
Hmm.
Ash (14:47.994)
the ceiling’s higher and what they want to achieve is a lot higher. So, you know, for a hardcore band that’s never going to get mainstream radio airplay and is all, you know, harsh vocals and there’s no…
melody in the singing, you know, just getting to a thousand or two thousand tickets and being able to have a nice career touring, like that’s like what they set out to do. You know, they if they could sell out House of Blues or Will Turns or Palladiums, that was it. There’s other artists that are like, we want to sell out arenas, we want to sell out amphitheaters or.
We want to have, you know, number one songs on K-Rock. And so the success in breaking them is, is dependent on what their expectations are and what your expectations are as the label or the manager or the agent. so.
Ari Herstand (15:35.63)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (15:38.428)
you know, for one artist that like all they wanted to do is get to 2000 tickets in a month and a million monthly stream or a million monthly listeners. That’s like incredible. And then there’s another artist who was much more expensive to, to, you know, invest in. And they had much higher expectations for them only getting a million monthlies and a thousand or 2000 tickets. They would consider like, you know, the destiny wasn’t fulfilled. That’s not where we wanted to be. We were supposed to be selling out arenas. Um, you know,
Ari Herstand (16:05.996)
Hmm. Yeah.
Ash (16:07.6)
So yeah, it’s really dependent on what the goal is. And it’s the same thing for film, right? Like for independent film and for studio movies. What did it cost to make the movie? What’s the box office need to be? What’s the cultural significance of it? So success is really dependent upon what the expectation is.
Ari Herstand (16:20.589)
Mm-hmm.
Ari Herstand (16:30.84)
Sure. well, have you found that artists are breaking? I mean, did you see that there was kind of, growth in the live space more so back then than, than now because of the internet, because of Tik TOK, because of, you know, streaming and just the ability for information, digital information to move so much quicker now, or are you still seeing that artists will,
I guess grow, don’t even necessarily break, but if there’s this breaking point or something, like how important is it is the live space? You mentioned tickets a bunch of times, the number of tickets that they can sell as kind of a benchmark of a level of success. And how are artists getting to that point? And, and, you know, sure, the mechanisms have changed over the years, but do you find that
in the hardcore and the metal space and the hard rock space that bands can break easier maybe in a live than maybe in other genres where it’s more expected that they have to break on social media or I don’t know talk to me about just like the difference between live and kind of the recorded side.
Ash (17:48.987)
Well, specifically for a lot of the bands in the world that we operate in, they call it like the scene and it really is a scene to where like, because it’s in specific genre, there’s so many people that are paying attention to everything in that. That’s why people always say like, I’m not like a big horror person, but like, that’s why people always like try and compare horror film and like the horror movie scene to like hard rock and heavy metal because you can have a horror movie that doesn’t have like a big name actor or director.
Ari Herstand (17:55.703)
Yeah.
Ari Herstand (18:02.35)
Hmm.
Ash (18:17.692)
or even a studio behind it, but if the horror community thinks it’s cool and interesting, they’ll show up for it. And a lot of times people go to the movies just because whatever horror movie is playing locally, like they are just like, oh, that’s the horror movie, that’s what I’m gonna go see, because they enjoy the horror theatrical experience. So that’s one of the big advantages for just selling tickets is that if it’s part of a scene, there’s enough people that will pay attention to it just because of the genre and the world that it’s in.
Ari Herstand (18:46.027)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (18:46.074)
When I was voting shows 20 plus years ago on like passing out flyers and stuff, the label brand was a big deal back then. I I remember in the early 2000s, if a band was on a specific label, Victory was an example. That was my first distributor. Sadly, you know, that brand got destroyed.
There was a time where if a band was on Victory Records, I knew that local bands would want to open for them. I knew that that logo on the flyer would get kids to show up and it had, you know, cultural weight.
And they were also very good at promoting their bands, passing out sampler CDs, all sorts of stuff. But like that logo meant something. That’s also I have to do with Sumerian is like, can’t guarantee. I can’t guarantee anyone’s success, and I can’t guarantee anyone that people will like them or they’ll make money. But I think what I can confidently like guarantee is that I can get at least enough people to pay attention depending on their genre that like they’ll have an honest shot to.
Ari Herstand (19:24.782)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ash (19:49.967)
catch momentum. Of course, we can like guarantee them certain things and like, you know, deal points and all that stuff. But like, as far as like having a brand in a specific genre that we can get enough people to at least turn their head for a moment and give something a look. That’s a big deal. Because that’s really and I think that record labels today, they want to continue to have, you know, a real
Ari Herstand (20:05.624)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (20:16.27)
a real voice and a real like platform for their artists, it has to be more than money and distribution. Because money and distribution, you know, you can get that anywhere.
Ari Herstand (20:22.53)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (20:26.906)
What is it besides the money and the distribution that makes it powerful? And I think that’s A &R. think that’s the people that work there, the staff. I’m a very big believer in most things all come down to just two things, which is ideas and execution. What’s the idea and how is it being executed? I live by that. That’s like a mantra at Samarian. You know, we can all go by our day and come up with, you know, making sure the trains run on time and the I’s are dotted, the T’s are crossed, the deliverables are there. But like what really moves the needle in my opinion,
Ari Herstand (20:45.411)
Hmm.
Ash (20:57.07)
especially in entertainment and in business in general. It’s just like what’s the idea and how is it being executed? Some people like I was just gonna say one thing I’ve tried to build is like some people here are idea people and other people are execution people and a lot of times they’re two different skill sets whether it’s left brain versus right brain or what but that’s kind of like the peanut butter and jelly I think of Sumerian is that we have ideas people and we have executors.
Ari Herstand (21:03.394)
Yeah. So what? Yeah. Go ahead.
Ash (21:24.156)
This person comes up with the idea, but they’re not going to be able to execute it. And this person is not really an idea person, but they’ll execute your idea better than anyone else. And that’s kind of like the yin and the yang.
Ari Herstand (21:24.813)
Yes.
Ari Herstand (21:34.457)
That’s great. So tell me about some of these kind of ideas and the execution that has happened over the last couple of years or so. Tell me some creative or cool stories of just maybe some more recent artists. And I know you’ve had a lot of great success recently, even just in the last year with a bunch of billboard, hot hard rock songs, number ones and all of that. But talk to me about just like
Yeah, what are these ideas that kind of have come out of Samarian maybe in partnership with your artists and just like, and tell me those journeys of the stories of those release stories.
Ash (22:16.774)
Well, without getting too specific with different artists, because I don’t want to, you know, I’m trying to keep this as well. Let me ask you this. How long is this format? I forgive me for not being more prepared for this. How long is this Okay. So some of the examples are bands signing here with very different band names. Then in hindsight, you go, wow, that was going to be their band name. And then we helped them find a new band name. A lot of times was just.
Ari Herstand (22:31.017)
we’ll go about an hour. Yeah. Yeah.
Ash (22:46.236)
inspired by their own lyrics where we go through their lyrics a lot of times it’s a music video idea it’s a touring idea it’s a a collaboration idea it’s song notes it’s album covers it’s
how to approach their brand, how to present themselves. A lot of it also is like keeping a band together and the therapy of it all and like managing one’s, know, personalities and egos and expectations. But, you know, in the artist development, being able to get artists on the road opening for other artists and then people pay the word once they’re bigger than they’re taking out other bands from the label, that’s been a big part of it because it’s hard to get those first few tours, you know,
Ari Herstand (23:24.429)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (23:35.355)
It’s much harder. I feel like someone else was talking about this on something I saw online, but like it’s way harder to get to that first 500 tickets. that first like, you know, basically zero to 500 is harder than like a thousand to 2000 or even like 2000 to 3000, you know?
Ari Herstand (23:55.073)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (23:56.861)
and that’s really where you have to at least get to there and where you have something to offer, whether you’re a support act and you’re bringing some fans, or you can at least go on tour and like the venues and the clubs can cover their costs by like putting you on stage and them paying you a fee to be there. So it’s really like that, that first 500 tickets. that’s where I built so much of, Samarian and also my booking career is like those clubs, you know, and that’s kind of like the last.
bucket in live music and it hasn’t been completely overtaken by the overlords. It’s like the local, you know, four or 500 cap venues where a lot of artists, you know, first develop and take flight from.
Ari Herstand (24:30.763)
Right, right.
Ari Herstand (24:39.062)
And how does Sumerian support that other than putting the bands together, which is huge. mean, I mean, getting the bands, you know, opening slots and everything are in the contracts in the Sumerian contracts. mean, are you, do you offer tour support? I mean, it is extremely expensive to tour, especially at that level. Are these bands, I mean, what is
the mechanism and I mean, how prevalent are tour buy ons in your scene? And is that something that you guys consider or participate in at all? And and do you participate in the tour revenue on the flip side?
Ash (25:22.744)
So we have bought bands on the tours before or submitted like, you know, marketing spend saying we’re going to put up X amount of dollars in marketing that the headlining band and their reps can determine how it’s spent. We’ve definitely had to do that early on. And that’s something that, you know,
Ari Herstand (25:36.013)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (25:42.501)
Because we’re still founder owned and like I started it and I run it and like the buck stops with me or whatever the saying is like we can move faster than some of these labels that are.
owned by larger entities where there’s just more bureaucracy and like yellow tape to get things done. So if somebody has an idea or they need a check by tomorrow morning or they come up with an idea at night and they want to go shoot it or execute it the next day, like we can move, you know, pretty much at the speed of what the idea is going back to the whole idea of execution. Other labels can’t move as fast as us because there’s just more people involved or shareholders or, you know, just all that.
But yeah, we’ve definitely had to buy bands on the tours before early on. Do I think it’s an ethical call? If we’re going to get into ethics in the music we should just do the whole podcast on ethics in the music business. Do I think it’s an ethical call?
Ari Herstand (26:28.398)
Do you think that’s an ethical practice?
Ari Herstand (26:38.818)
Let’s start here, we’ll start with tour biomes.
Ash (26:41.916)
for violence.
I mean, ACDC said it best, man, Money Talks. mean, do I think it’s ethical? I think there’s, I don’t think it’s unethical. It’s not something I,
If something’s not unethical, this is interesting, this is a philosophical question. If it’s not unethical, does that automatically give it the ethical adjective? You know what I mean? I think tour bions, if I have a sold out tour, okay, well first I’ll say this. I don’t like to do with my bands, right? I think.
I think the buy-on usually ends up being a band that doesn’t really have the weight or hasn’t gotten at a level to warrant their themselves.
So I always, you know, as an agent, as well as like just a label advising my artists, like I always say, stack it to the top, like have your opening band be as popular as possible and already have, you know, things under their belt that warrant that. But sometimes the biomes happen because
Ash (28:09.04)
they think the tour is going to sell out regardless of who’s opening or the artists have financial issues. And that’s why we’re like the ethical versus unethical things tricky because like you never know why someone is selling a slot on a tour. If someone has alimony issues or someone’s going through like a financial or medical crisis or they’re going to lose their house and they’re like, we have to find X more amount of dollars or my whole world’s going to come undone. Then I understand why they would do that. Sometimes they just do it because
managers and band guys want to just put money in their pocket because they can where there’s no like why and that’s where I think it’s really foolish. Ethical or unethical is a bigger conversation. Foolish unless that’s the only way they can find that money and it’s absolutely crucial for some you know clock ticking situation. I think it’s very foolish. It’s very short-sighted.
Ari Herstand (28:43.79)
Mm-hmm.
Ari Herstand (28:47.8)
Mm-hmm.
Ari Herstand (29:01.581)
Hmm.
Ash (29:02.236)
The kid on the street doesn’t really know the background of that. They look at it and they go, the headlining band that I think is cool, this is who else they want me to check out. So in a lot of ways, the opening artists are a reflection of what the headliners think they want to curate. That’s also where it can become a problem between the managers and the artists because…
Ari Herstand (29:21.037)
Right.
Ash (29:26.844)
A lot of times the artists want to put together their tour package based on what’s on their iPod is the old saying, even though most people don’t have iPods, but like, well, this is the playlist, this is what I think’s cool. And then there’s two other parts of that. Well, that’s what you think’s cool. Sometimes what your fans want is not something that you would listen to or you think’s cool. And then the flip, the third side to that on the manager and the agent promoter side is like, well, you may not think this is cool, but this is what’s going to make sure the shows sell out. Well, I don’t want to tour with that band.
Ari Herstand (29:35.608)
Yeah.
Ash (29:56.811)
I know you don’t want to tour at that band, but you want to get paid as a sold out show. So in order to sell the show out, this band needs to be on the show with you or one of these three bands. So it’s definitely a dance. It’s always perfect when like it’s so big. Like if you look at like the Guns N’ Roses Metallica co-headline back in the day, they were the two hottest bands in the world. So it didn’t matter. They could be like, who do we both agree on? And like we both think Faith No More is awesome. Have them be the opener. But like that shit was out of the park as soon as.
Ari Herstand (30:05.194)
Right. Right.
Ash (30:25.392)
people knew Guns N’ Roses and Metallica were touring together. And look, the other side of it too is like going back to what success is and like the size of the venues. Hey, if you wanna just take out stuff that you think’s cool regardless of how many tickets they’re worth or what your fans think.
Ari Herstand (30:34.542)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (30:41.424)
Well, if you’re playing the smaller venue, you don’t got to worry about it. But if you’re, if you’re trying to level up and now you’re playing in venues that you don’t know for certain, you can sell out just you. That’s where you really have to look at, you know, the undercard and how it’s being packaged. And that was, that was something when I was an agent was, another big like superpower of what I was doing was that I could put together four or five band tours that like the older, more established agents and managers were like, well, that’s only going to do
500 people and then I was like no no no when these put together it’s gonna do 800 it’s gonna do a thousand and so people started coming to me being like Ash is putting together these tour lineups that are drawing more people
Ari Herstand (31:17.358)
Hmm.
Ash (31:24.89)
than anyone is expecting. And so then older headlining bands were like, we need to go and do tours that Asher’s doing because the way he’s packaging these bands, it’s leading to more ticket sales. And that’s what everyone wants. And they want to sell as many tickets as they can. So that was really a crucial part of it all. Part of that was me understanding the genres and what the fans wanted. And the other part of that was me just knowing about bands that other people didn’t know about yet.
Ari Herstand (31:39.212)
Right.
Ari Herstand (31:49.208)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ash (31:49.533)
And I feel that now more than ever because there’s just so many artists now all going on fucking Spotify. I’ll be like, who the fuck is this person with 4 million followers and like a million on Instagram and all this engagement. I like, never even fucking heard of this person ever. And then I feel like I’m out of touch. And then I listen to him like, actually really like this. And I’m like, how did 4 million people know about this before I did? You know what I mean? It was fascinating. But back then it wasn’t as prevalent as it is now where there’s just…
Ari Herstand (31:59.682)
Right.
Ari Herstand (32:04.407)
Yeah.
Ari Herstand (32:10.88)
You
Ash (32:16.444)
so many artists that are taking off that you may have never heard of before.
Ari Herstand (32:21.868)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, let’s talk about it because it is, we are in an extremely fragmented, industry right now. I mean, you know, with the algorithm that is completely personalized to each individual listener right now. I mean, we’ve never had that in the history of music. You know, there historically, of course there are radio stations and it was from one to many and now it’s one to one based on the algorithm. it is so fragmented and
And you’d say maybe the scenes maybe have gotten even more fragmented in niche. Maybe, maybe not. But I guess that is why the live space is still so important because that’s everybody coming together. but I guess it also leaves space for all of these more obscure acts, left of center, other bands, other subcultures, sub scenes all over that, you know, they have 4 million listeners and formula. People have heard of them before you.
so I guess in like, are you noticing a fragmentation in your scene that maybe is, has happened to because of the way that people are engaging with music these days, and that is through streaming. And has you, have you seen this scene shift and evolve because of it?
Ash (33:46.237)
I feel like, and this is probably just because it’s become more mainstream, I actually feel like it’s less fragmented now in some way. When I first got into in the early 2000s,
It feels like more like it was now it you can have a metal band with an emo band with a screamo band punk band hardcore band and they would all play together. and then it became very like your hardcore. I’m metal core. I’m screamo. I’m emo punk. I’m goth. I’m all it got very like tribal and very like into the nitty gritty, like sub genre and sub genre. And that was pretty bad because it made it, it wasn’t as fun packaging wise because you just had to
Ari Herstand (34:11.938)
Mmm.
Ari Herstand (34:22.379)
Yeah.
Ash (34:28.294)
depth, depth, depth, and not much width. And then now, now I think because it’s becoming so much more mainstream, it’s easier for it to be more diverse. I mean, it’s still all like, you know, all the different colors of the rock and roll rainbow, as I say, but like, it’s not quite as fragmented as it used to be in the sense of like, people were so protective of each sub genre. And I think it’s just because it’s, there’s more people that are into, you know, rock. And that’s what I love growing up when I, when I look at like,
you know, the old Lollapalooza like tour lineups. I mean, it was awesome. You had Rancid with Ramones, with Metallica, with Wu Tang, with Rage, with Pumpkins. Like it was, it was very, it was, it was diverse. And I feel like people are getting back to that now, which is great.
Ari Herstand (35:15.531)
Yeah. When you do plan a rollout, whether that’s a single or an album campaign, what are some of the things that are fairly consistent across your roster and within the label? And then what are some of the more maybe unique, creative, out of the box aspects of some of these rollouts and release campaigns?
Ash (35:44.806)
Well, we all like, we’re one of the labels that will like die on the cross for the music video.
Ari Herstand (35:52.501)
I’ve noticed that you guys put out a lot of music videos and I’m curious your take on music videos. Yeah, speak more to that.
Ash (35:58.949)
Well, it’s, actually a big focus of this year. We’re going to try, I think for the first time ever, solve the problem of, of the music video and the sense of like how, well, the problem is they’re, they’re expensive to make and there’s no way to ever make the money back. And it’s become this like loss leader that a lot of labels will just not even do.
Ari Herstand (36:11.137)
What’s the problem?
Ari Herstand (36:17.196)
Yes.
Ash (36:28.028)
music videos past like one video or a certain budget. And then, you know, I, I’ll, I won’t mention the label and the artists, but there was just this past year, a artist that was winning Grammys, having an incredible culturally significant moment. And they wanted to do a video for this song. And you know, one of the biggest, most powerful, sexy record labels couldn’t get it approved.
And it wasn’t even a crazy amount of money. And so that artist ended up taking like a third party investor into his whole business. And then that new third party paid for the music video. And it’s because
What it cost, you know, it’s much cheaper. In my opinion, this is the biggest problem in entire music business. And this is why I’m launching this platform called bands, which is literally bands.com. But the app will be called bands is that a music video costs much more money than to make than the song, you know, 99 % of the time, right. But yet the audio stream is higher than the video stream because YouTube is the main place.
Ari Herstand (37:29.591)
Totally. Yeah.
Ash (37:38.385)
the people are watching videos and YouTube pays less than Spotify or Apple. And now Spotify has added music videos to, but they don’t pay it any different, but yet it costs way more money. So there’s this never ending curse that the artists and the labels just have to hold the bag. Why? It’s not because fans don’t want videos and they’re willing to support them. It’s because the business has never offered any type of first window solution.
the way the film business does. know, the film business, movie business is brilliant on windowing their content. First it’s in the movie theater, then it’s on transactional VOD at home.
Ari Herstand (38:11.265)
Hmm.
Ash (38:18.5)
Then it’s in a pay one window on a streamer, Netflix, Hulu, HBO. Then it’s on a secondary Avod, which is you can watch it for free. It goes onto the Tubis and the Plutos and they window it and they window it. And then sometimes like they just did with Daze, they confuse this past Monday on 420. Then they put it back in and they celebrate it again and say, hey, you can get this anywhere for free, but we’re gonna put it back in the movie theater so you can have an experience. So the music business has never.
Ari Herstand (38:37.453)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ash (38:45.976)
figure that out because everything was MTV, which was great because they had exposure and they had the television reach. And then when MTV stopped playing music videos, it became YouTube, which literally was launched more so by fans than it was the labels. The fans were uploading the music videos.
Ari Herstand (38:48.897)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (39:02.82)
And then when you, when Google went to buy YouTube, they realized you didn’t even have the licenses for most of these videos that have gotten you all of this viewership and user base. And so then they went to the majors. The majors scrambled. took equity. They all got paid out. And then they gave them the blanket licenses and that sold to Google. And here we are today, but there was never any actual solution. Funny story about MTV. So they had a mandate to never pay for music videos. couldn’t break
Ari Herstand (39:08.471)
Right.
Ash (39:32.747)
form, right? But the MTV decks knew that Michael Jackson Thriller was going to be this incredible video and this cultural, you know, explosion and they had to figure out how to get it done. So to work around the Viacom, you know, red tape that we don’t pay for music videos, period, right? Like there’s no way. They went to MTV Films and said, well, we should we want to make a documentary about the making of Thriller.
Ari Herstand (39:34.241)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (40:01.596)
So we’re gonna make a documentary film. And they go, okay, yes, well, we can approve that because it’s a film, it’s not a music video. And in the making of the film with the budget that they got, they made thriller. MTV was actually who really, and again, it’s just because some creative execs, what was the idea? Michael Jackson’s gotta make this thriller thing. Well, what’s the execution? Well, we gotta figure out how we can get the money for it. We’ll make the movie and we’ll make the video while we make the movie. So I think,
Ari Herstand (40:01.889)
Wow.
Ari Herstand (40:12.461)
Sure.
Ari Herstand (40:22.23)
Right.
Yeah.
Ash (40:31.61)
not having a first window strategy for music video launches and also not being able to launch them together, right? If there’s five bands from five different record labels that all share fans, the same concept of why they tour together and they do festivals together, if they could all drop their videos together, it’s Friday night at seven o’clock or Sunday, whatever it is, and all of those fans are tuning in and then whether it’s Avod or T-Vod or SVod, which is advertisement or transactional or subscription,
Ari Herstand (40:59.309)
Mm.
Ash (41:00.334)
If all of those fans can watch it together and the artists and the labels can make more money instead of just bowing to the Google gods, that to me is fantastic because I think most fans, whether they had to sit through ads or they had to pay a dollar or whatever it was, if they knew that it was actually going to the artists and it was going to lead to more music videos, like I think they would support it. And I think, I think the labels and the artists are fatigued enough. 10 years ago, probably wouldn’t have worked. I think everyone’s fatigued enough now by our tech overlords.
Ari Herstand (41:23.98)
Yeah.
Ash (41:30.238)
that it’s like, okay, Spotify, Google, they’re never coming to save us. Yes, they’re there, we all have to use them. But none of them are going out of the way to figure out how to really shift the dynamic of artists. And the funny thing is, you know who cracked the exclusive transactional VOD code for content? Fucking OnlyFans. All these women that were getting just destroyed.
Ari Herstand (41:30.871)
Yeah.
Ari Herstand (41:41.101)
Mm.
Ari Herstand (41:50.679)
Cool. yeah, yeah, right.
Ash (41:57.821)
financially with what happened to the porn business they were like well it’s exclusive and we’ll just charge people for it and now these these you know ex-adult stars make more money on OnlyFans and they would ever making doing it for real and they’re making more money than really big bands right
Ari Herstand (42:01.41)
Mm-hmm.
Ari Herstand (42:15.061)
Right. Right.
Ash (42:15.708)
The problem is if you’re a popular band, you don’t want to be like on a Patreon or like having your hand out going, oh, help me make more money because it’s just it’s not reading the room. You’re like, oh, well, you’re already, you know, the perception is you’re already, you know, successful and famous. But the truth is these music videos. You know, some of them cost six figures or multiple six figures. You know how many times you got to stream on YouTube to make one hundred thousand dollars? Shit, even to make ten grand. It’s a lot, right?
Ari Herstand (42:40.849)
Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah.
Ash (42:45.18)
And the viewership that they’re getting are the same as really big shows on Netflix. But why do labels and why do artists get so fucking screwed on the music video if they fucking allowed it? That’s why.
Ari Herstand (42:51.478)
Right.
Ari Herstand (42:57.875)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Ash (43:01.53)
because they’ve allowed themselves to get raped and pillaged and beaten to the ground. And now there’s a breaking point. The artists and the fans still wanna make these great music videos. The labels wanna support them, but they’re like, how can this be sustainable? We don’t wanna have a hundred million streams on Spotify go up into thin air because we made a cool music video that’s gonna make us five grand over the course of hour long.
So that’s really what I’m very focused on this year, because I love videos and I know this was, we completely went on a tangent. I apologize. asked me what some of the, but, but, yeah, see it’s to make them feel whatever their brand is, right? One thing I always ask bands, I think it’s a great A &R tool is like, if your band was a movie, what movie would it be? Right? You asked me to clash, the clashes platoon, you know, the prodigies, the fifth element, right?
Ari Herstand (43:34.317)
No, no, no, I am very curious about the music videos. Yeah.
Ari Herstand (43:48.493)
Mm-hmm.
Ari Herstand (43:55.789)
Sure.
Ash (43:56.689)
Bad Omens in some ways I feel like is like The Matrix meets like some incredible toxic romance film. But like, it allows you to kind of think about, okay, what is our band? What’s our aura? What’s the feng shui of everything that we present to the world? Music videos are a big part of building that. Music videos have always been.
Ari Herstand (44:04.597)
Yeah.
Ari Herstand (44:09.037)
Mm.
Ash (44:21.658)
what that is and even though don’t, a lot of them don’t stream as much as the song, they still plant the seed. They’re just very powerful. And if you look on a music video, you know, there’s all these different people, just like making a movie, it takes all these different people. There’s production department. But making a song, you you got an engineer and you got, you know, a musician and then you fucking go. So the music video needs to get the respect it deserves, as do all the people that make them.
Ari Herstand (44:34.475)
Yeah. I mean, it is. Yeah.
Ari Herstand (44:44.279)
Yeah.
Ari Herstand (44:50.091)
Yeah, no, I mean, I agree, it is something that has always been a loss leader. It’s I look at it’s kind of like music videos are the purpose of music videos are for fan engagement, whereas like a big purpose of kind of frontline streaming is for discovery. And so it’s like to get someone from a listener to become a fan, which you know, I differentiate a bit in a listener is passive and a fan is invested. It’s like
fans are digging in their divers and they’re going in deep and they’re trying to, you know, get to know that artist deeper and better. And they’re trying to consume everything that that artist has put out. And so a music video is a great storytelling tool to help the artists kind of tell more of the story of who they are and fans will eat that up. And whereas like, you know, listeners might not be as interested in the music video as much. And so, but that then
theoretically, hopefully whatever would translate into ticket sales and merch sales and et cetera. But yeah, it’s not a one to one. Whereas I think, yeah, I think we are at that point where fans would pay for a music video from an artist behind a paywall. Whereas like you said, probably not 10 years ago, but I think the culture has shifted quite a bit now.
Ash (46:09.796)
And even if it’s just 24 hours or 48 or one week, not saying it has to be there forever, but like, you know, it’s why people like to tip. It’s why like they like to know that like, this person, you know, presented something or did something that would, that had value.
You know, to me, like music videos have value and they’re worthy, you know? To me, it’s very unethical to treat the music video art form as if it’s not worthy because of sins of the past or because of apathy to, you know, technological…
Ari Herstand (46:27.17)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ash (46:56.156)
strategy, really, like they’re just the whole the whole apathy of it. It is very surprising that the major labels have thrown all that, you know, that they didn’t solve it. And that’s why it’s why I see all this money going into AI. I’m like, it’s not solving any any like actual problem for the artists that build this industry, which are the ones that have fans and the fans spend money. Right.
Ari Herstand (46:57.983)
Yeah.
Ari Herstand (47:23.447)
Well, the majors have been playing catch up for so long. I mean, because you know, like you said, they were caught flat footed with YouTube and all of their artists videos were already put on YouTube by the fans. They didn’t know how to monetize it. They didn’t get ahead of it. And they kind of, you know, they really fumbled that from the beginning. Initially, they’re just like, fuck it, just mute everything. Let’s rip it down. And they’re like, well, that doesn’t help because it’s a great promotional tool.
So they’re like, all right, well then let’s figure out how to monetize it. It’s like, okay, I guess we’ll just take a fat check from YouTube and you know, we’ll just live on that for a little while. It’s like, okay, now we figured it out. Now we’re just making 55 % of the ad revenue from YouTube, which is like nothing. And then it’s just like, well, I guess it’s just how it is. It’s a great promotional tool and they’re just not going to invest in making those music videos because yeah, they’re not seeing that return anymore. you know, they’d never been a
of it and there’s never been really any creativity or innovation when it comes to the business model of what it is.
Ash (48:21.796)
Yeah. And I think the biggest mistake they’ve made, this goes beyond just music, but because we’re talking music, I will say this with total confidence. I think the biggest mistake the record business made on piracy is that they tried to solve it with security instead of convenience. Comfort and convenience fight piracy.
Ari Herstand (48:45.453)
Mm.
Absolutely.
Ash (48:50.096)
better than security when it comes to the culture.
Ari Herstand (48:53.099)
And we’ve learned that, it’s been proven. now. Right.
Ash (48:55.418)
That’s it. Right? Like if you make something convenient and comfortable for someone, I do think it’s inhuman nature to just go with the flow. versus like, I’m going to jump through these hoops and get something for free. there’ll always be that, but it’s far less if something is presented in a great way and it’s convenient, you know, that’s right. Yeah.
Ari Herstand (49:11.212)
Mm-hmm.
Ari Herstand (49:19.873)
That’s why Spotify won and the Pirate Bay died. mean, yeah. Yeah. So I am curious your connection to film because I did see that, did you have a hand in putting out turnstiles, full like visual album that I, cause I know turnstiles on road runner, but I read something about that.
Ash (49:37.805)
Yeah, Sumerian pictures distributed it. Yes. We didn’t produce it. The band made it all themselves and it was premiering at Tribeca and we came to them and told them how much we love the band and we would love to help.
Ari Herstand (49:42.733)
it right
Ash (49:58.961)
get it out for a theatrical experience for their fans, which the fan, mean, so many people loved it and it was so worthy as a film to get the theatrical experience and the fans showed up. And it was very last minute. There was not almost lead time. They were finishing it right up till the end and we were able, because of what I’ve spent a lot of…
Ari Herstand (50:14.177)
Yeah.
Ash (50:25.786)
time and energy building with Sumerian going back to distribution and, you know, ideas and execution is like to be able to do that. Going back to what I said earlier, like if you’re just money and distribution, like traditional distribution, like it’s on Spotify and give you money, you got to be able to do more than that. And that’s one thing I’ve always tried to do with Sumerian as a company, film, television, comic books, graphic novels, you know, if you look back how the record or how the entertainment business used to be,
The movie studios and the music companies were all one, right?
Sony’s the only one that still has that, they don’t communicate like they should. That’s why that K-pop Demon Hunters fumble happened, right? Like, Sony Pictures didn’t talk to Sony Music about it. Sony Pictures just licensed it to Netflix. Netflix took it all. Actually, I think they licensed I think they bought it. They made all the money, and then Netflix gave the music to Universal, which just added insult to injury for the Sony people that allowed, you know…
the billion dollar fumble to happen right in their living room. But that was because, you know, everyone wasn’t communicating between the different departments. So I make everyone, you know, work in the same office and the different departments and spend time with each other and to try and never have something like that happen here. But I think my laptop’s about to die, so I need to get plugged in before this cooks. Give me one second.
Ari Herstand (51:42.892)
Is-
Ash (51:57.757)
All right, I think it should be okay. If it starts getting choppy, let me know.
Ari Herstand (52:01.515)
Yeah, no worries. Well, cool. Well, no, mean, I, we’ve covered quite a wide range of topics. I’m curious where you see, like where what is next for you? What is next for Samarian? know, where’s this all heading? Are you, you’ve gone this journey now of being an artist to a booking agent to a record label owner and founder now dipping into film? I mean,
What is next? Where do you see Sumerian heading? Where do you see the industry heading?
Ash (52:34.832)
Well, specifically with Sumerian, I would say that when I was a kid, the record label brands were more significant than the independent film brands. That’s changed now. When I was a kid, Miramax was probably the coolest one. But even at the peak of Miramax, that brand power was nowhere near what A24 and Neon are now. A24 is probably the most culturally significant, from a cool factor, entertainment brand in the world.
when it comes to anything to do with audio visual experience. And so that has shifted. Like as a kid, there was Def Jam and there was Sub Pop and there was all these brands that had, but now it’s flipped and now A24 is getting into music, which is very smart of them. My vision for Sumerian is similar in reverse, music into film and also into books and…
Publishing and story, know at the heart of it all it’s songs and stories. I love songs and I love stories and helping
Ari Herstand (53:35.457)
Yeah.
Ash (53:39.217)
people get theirs out to the world, get them made, get them produced, distributed, all those things. I just want Sumerian to continue to grow as a brand that people know that like, if our name’s on it, we can hopefully at least get them to turn their head and pay attention for a moment and give whatever it is that the art is, to have it be its an honest day in court, right? To try and get it out there. A24 has done such an amazing job of…
Ari Herstand (54:02.487)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (54:05.648)
being able to get a film seen by so many people just because their logo’s on it. And a lot of that is their taste and a lot of it is their marketing skills, ideas and execution. They have great taste and they’re really brilliant at marketing. And so they built this loyalty for the brand. that’s something that I think on the music side has faded a lot. I don’t think that the brand loyalty and record labels in general are anything like it used to be. And that’s something that I take very seriously on Sumerian
Ari Herstand (54:32.877)
Sure.
Ash (54:35.582)
try and not ever lose that. It’s why we say no a lot to opportunities just because even though we know we can make money off of it and it would be financially successful, we say no. And that to me is important. I’ll give an example with pro wrestling. When WWE sold, they started putting ads everywhere. So it’s like,
Ari Herstand (54:50.113)
Hmm.
Ash (54:59.97)
up until now, like you couldn’t put anything on the wrestling mat. It was considered sacred. Like the mat, now the ads, it’s not like UFC where it’s monster energy and ba da da da. It’s like, it was sacred and it had a certain aesthetic and it was timeless looking. And now, you know, there’s ads everywhere. I mean, they’re, they’re streaming on Netflix and there’s commercial breaks and that’s pissing fans off. And there’s logos on everything and a bank logo and this logo and energy drink logo. And it’s everywhere. And to me, I get it. Cause they’re, they’re, you know, they’re owned by a
Ari Herstand (55:04.493)
Hmm.
Ash (55:29.916)
a big conglomerate and it’s their shareholders and there’s all this, you know, monetary motivation, everything, but it’s sad for the legacy and also for the fan to be like, man, like this is just like everything else now. Everything is an advertisement. Everything’s about money and um,
I don’t know, man. I never want that to become what Sumerian is. We leave a lot of things on the table because we don’t want to whore ourselves out. And then as far as the business in general, I think the music business has to get more control of its destiny when it comes to the artists and the labels, right? Because the artists are the ones making the art and the labels are the ones taking the risk on the art, period.
Ari Herstand (55:52.884)
Mm-hmm.
Ari Herstand (55:57.015)
Yeah.
Ari Herstand (56:16.459)
Mm-hmm
Ash (56:17.478)
The that there’s all these other companies and entities and non-creative conglomerates that are able to suck the blood, it’s very dystopian and it’s very sad. And it’s very sad watching it all just merge into this thing.
I think of all the books that my English teacher made me read in high school and it was like Animal Farm, 1984, Fahrenheit 451, Brave New World. We’re seeing all that play out beyond music, but just in general. I’m sure you saw the thing about the guys making fun of the ticket buyers at Live Nation and they were just showing how much total control they have and total dismissive to anything of ethics.
Ari Herstand (56:58.827)
Yeah.
Ari Herstand (57:04.246)
Yup.
Yeah, it disgusting. Yeah.
Ash (57:08.436)
Yeah, and there’s and like, how does how did the artists fight back, you know, like, they and nobody wants everyone scared of putting themselves out there and like, you know, that’s what I was mentioning about, like the like, you know, the the principles and the integrity of like,
Ari Herstand (57:17.953)
Mm-hmm.
Ash (57:24.72)
the genres of music I came from. It’s like, you know, we should be on the front lines of this stuff. And some of the artists are, you know, whether it’s sociological, cultural, but just on the business thing as the world’s so divisive right now, I feel like at least we can all agree that like, yo, fuck these fucking service fees, this fee, that fee, the fuck you fee. It’s like, what is this? By the way, how does it not get canceled being called Ticketmaster? I mean.
Ari Herstand (57:32.235)
Yeah.
Ari Herstand (57:51.221)
Yeah, for real. Yeah, that was a red flag. Yeah, from the get go. Yeah. Right, right, right. For real. Well, yeah, no, I there we have a long ways to go. But I like to believe that at the end of the day, you know, the art and the artists will win out and that the fans still
Ash (57:52.793)
I mean, that says all you need to know, you know? It’s called Ticketmaster, the joke’s on us,
Ari Herstand (58:15.799)
deeply do care and want to support the art and the artists and that there will be that indelible connection that will withstand. And we have, you know, the live space and we have these areas and these scenes and these cultures and communities that have withstood the test of time and that will continue on through all of the craziness and the distractions and things that are trying to rip everybody apart. you know, music finds a way.
Life finds a way, music finds a way and music will always hopefully continue on. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Ash, thank you so much. I have one final question that I ask everyone who comes on the show and that is, what does it mean to you to make it in the new music business? What is making it?
Ash (58:49.744)
Yeah, I love that. I agree with you.
Ash (59:02.15)
think making it is being able to make a living doing what you enjoy doing in music.
Ari Herstand (59:11.105)
Simple as that, right on. Dig it.
Ash (59:12.154)
Yeah, if you get to, you can live off of it in any way that’s making it man.
Ari Herstand (59:19.447)
Boom. Love it. Ash, thanks so much. That was great.
Ash (59:23.066)
You got it, man. Thanks for having me. Hope to meet you in person.
Ari Herstand (59:25.483)
Yeah, definitely. All right, take care. Bye.
Ash (59:27.965)
Cheers, brother.
